House Church Talk - Re: House Church Talk Digest, Vol 3, Issue 116

[Claire Bennett]

By agenda, I did not mean that it is wrong to have plans and goals.  I am
talking about an agenda that may not be hidden, but many may be unaware of.

Regarding the idea that if one works for an emplorer they are slaves, and if
their wives work for another they are slaves and therefore the husband is
not ruling his household well:  I discussed it elsewhere, but business
owners will tell you they are slaves to their customers, employees,
creditors, suppliers, the market forces and most of all the various
government tax and regulatory agencies.  We are all slaves, yet, we are all
free.

We could just make a list of what is required to be chosen for the A-list,
leader-worthy group.  It sounds a bit like the Mormon "temple-worthy"
concept.  Do you go down a check-list?  Or does the Lord use whoever he so
choses, sometimes many who don't fit the "requirements."  Jesus didn't
fulfill the requirements that the Pharasees, Zealots and others had on their
list either.  So, they didn't receive him, but they freely received another,
and another after that, who more adequately lined up with their agenda and
preconceived idea.

I see good works as mercy, kindness, love, - not women remaining silent,
pregnant, head-covered, not educated or working, dressed according to
specification.  I don't see that a person who doesn't work for an employer
rates a higher place in kingdom pecking order (I thought our pecking order
was upside down) as well as one who homeschools, doesn't drink alcohol and
has a non-working wife.

I found it a concern that Atkerson states that apostolic tradition is
binding as biblical law - sounds like the Roman Catholic Church to me.

It is not a matter of homechurching - it is coming at it from a different
angle.  Most homechurch because they see it as supportive of mutuality in
ministry; the legalists homechurch because they believe it is the correct,
letter of the law method to follow.  These are two opposing philosophies,
IMHO.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <House Church Talk -request at housechurch.org>
To: <House Church Talk  at housechurch.org>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 9:00 AM
Subject: House Church Talk  Digest, Vol 3, Issue 116


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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. United Nations panel hears of China house church persecutions
>       (forwarded)
>    2. Home Church Chat (Rick Johnson)
>    3. Re: agenda (David Anderson)
>    4. the chat room is now open (rebelfire at juno.com)
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:14:24 -0400
> From: forwarded <forwarded at housechurch.org>
> Subject: House Church Talk -  United Nations panel hears of China house church
> persecutions
> To: "House Church Talk" <House Church Talk  at housechurch.org>
> Message-ID: <E1BGiiB-0006TI-00 at cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> GENEVA / BUDAPEST (ANS) -- Persecuted Chinese House Church leaders,
> including tortured and sexually abused women, have for the first time
> testified at the United Nations Commission on Human Rights amid claims
> that the Beijing government is increasing pressure on unregistered
> churches and active believers, ASSIST News Service (ANS) learned Monday
> April 5.
>
> The Christian Aid Association (CAA), which investigates the plight of
> persecuted Christians, said a two-hour hearing held Friday, April 2, at
> the 60th annual meeting of the U.N. Commission in Geneva was aimed at
> showing the suffering of some of at least 8,903 Chinese believers who it
> claims were arrested and detained in the last 10 years. Armed with
> documents and a video recording of recently released female prisoners,
> the CAA painted a grim picture of Communist China's attitude towards
> active Christians. As an example CAA President Bob Fu said that feared
> Chinese security forces used torture as a weapon to gather "false
> evidence" against a pastor of the rapidly growing evangelical South China
> Church.
>
> "At least three believers were tortured to death, many men and women
> believers were tortured and many, especially women, were sexually abused
> and molested during their interrogation to obtain false evidence against
> Pastor Gong,² he told the U.N. Commission, according to a transcript
> obtained by the ANS Central and Eastern Europe Bureau in Budapest.
>
> The rest of the story at: http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/s04040025.htm
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:32:10 -0500
> From: "Rick Johnson" <rjohnson at wise.k12.va.us>
> Subject: House Church Talk -  Home Church Chat
> To: <House Church Talk  at housechurch.org>
> Message-ID: <000301c428a0$8157a660$f56004c6 at wise.k12.va.us>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> THURSDAY EVENING 6 PM
>
> HCTalk will again host the weekly Home Church chat.
>
> Please visit the following web site to log in.
>
> We ask that you log in using your first name and last initial.
>
> Once in the room, please provide a short introduction.
>
> https://housechurch.org/appiesnet/flashchat/cr1/login.php
>
> Rick
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:14:42 -0400
> From: David Anderson <david at housechurch.org>
> Subject: Re: House Church Talk -  agenda
> To: "House Church Talk" <House Church Talk  at housechurch.org>
> Message-ID: <E1BGkat-0004PD-00 at snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
> No agenda, huh? Nothing to do .... just be. Is that it?
>
> It's never occurred to some that the weary theory of "no agenda - just be
> the church" was previously unknown to the saints prior to this ignorant
> generation. Jesus, however, prophesied of these folks via a parable in
> Luke 12. Those who did not perform the Master's agenda were to be sorely
> punished in the end.
>
> Instead of being saved by grace "unto good works," these are saved unto
> "no works," I suppose. (Slight tinge of friendly sarcasm.)
>
> Matt. 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the
> kingdom of heaven, but only he who DOES the will of my Father who is in
> heaven.
>
> Matt. 12:50 For whoever DOES the will of my Father in heaven is my
> brother and sister and mother.
>
> I wish that by "agenda," the proponents of such meant "hidden agenda" but
> I happen to know otherwise. One woman I recall used to ask: "See, we're
> the fruit. Does fruit really DO anything?"
>
> And the ironic thing is that those who claim to have "no agenda" usually
> have one as extensive as any other group. I noticed this with great
> disbelief several years ago when a person named Jeff spoke of his
> enjoyment of a weekly day of rest, which he did not impose upon others.
> One self-righteous person after another began to attack him with some of
> the most vicious language I had ever encountered. For them, Christian
> "liberty" and "freedom" was a one way street - their way.
>
> As for the Conference, I do NOT believe it has been demonstrated that the
> 3 Planners are control freaks or money grubbers. Nor do they claim to
> have exhaustive agreement among themselves or the speakers they invite.
>
> Nor can it be shown, imo, that every gathering of Christians must conform
> to the format of the regular church meetings of the apostolic age.
> Believe it or not, there are examples in Scripture of meetings in which a
> single person was the "main speaker," in todays language. I never noticed
> that the planners referred to the conference as a church meeting, anyway.
>
> Furthermore, I doubt that any sub-group in the house church circle has,
> at this time, enough unanimity of opinion to sponsor a conference which
> would satisfy every attendee. Hopefully, over time, this will change. In
> the meantime, how many planners would invite those of opposing views to
> speak as did Steve Atkerson?
>
> Since changing my own position on the silent women's issue, I have
> continued to study it and shall do so. I have some more info to share
> sometime soon. (Some good experiences, too, such as the one last week at
> the home of Rick Johnson.) Others may post also, regardless of their
> belief - as always. If we were in total agreement, would there really be
> anything to discuss?
>
> As to the requirement of homeschooled church leaders, I will check into
> it further though it appears to be extra-biblical and without historical
> precedent. Thanks to Claire for calling it to our attention. Teachers and
> tutors are always mentioned in a positive light in the NT. Paul even
> named his teacher. The Jewish parents sent their little ones off to the
> synagogue schools at age 6. There were hundreds of these schools and I am
> not suggesting that prior to age 6 children didn't receive some training
> at home. Remember that elder men and women were to teach. I'll post on
> this issue later as it also sheds light on the age-segregated Sunday
> school.
>
>      David Anderson
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:16:52 -0400
> From: rebelfire at juno.com
> Subject: House Church Talk -  the chat room is now open
> To: House Church Talk  at housechurch.org
> Message-ID: <20040422.181859.2252.1.rebelfire at juno.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
> THURSDAY EVENING 6 PM
>
> HCTalk will again host the weekly Home Church chat.
>
> Please visit the following web site to log in.
>
> We ask that you log in using your first name and last initial.
>
> Once in the room, please provide a short introduction.
>
> https://housechurch.org/appiesnet/flashchat/cr1/login.php
>
> Rick
>
>
>
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> End of House Church Talk  Digest, Vol 3, Issue 116
> ***************************************
>