House Church Talk - Baptisms

[Bruce Woodford]

Hi Ross,

The baptism which we have been discussing is the new covenant baptism that 
is done by men. I am well aware that there are a number of different 
baptisms of people and objects in a variety of fluids in the old covenant 
scriptures (John's baptism included.) But after the new covenant was brought 
in by the shedding of the blood of Christ at Calvary, the only baptism of 
which I am aware of which men were the baptizers is the baptism of believers 
in water.

I'm curious though about a few of your statements:
You wrote:"...in Noah's case, he was baptized in the flood but never got 
wet!"

Of all the places which I have listed where the words "baptizo" or "bapto" 
are used in the scriptures, I've not found any so far that speak of Noah's 
experience in the flood as a "baptism". I certainly may have missed some, 
especially in the O.T. If you could help me locate the text(s) you are 
speaking about, I'd really appreciate it.

You seem to distinguish between the baptism in the Spirit on the Day of 
Pentecost and the baptism by which believers are sealed. Regarding the 
latte,r you suggested that the Holy Spirit, Himself, was the baptizer and 
that "identification with Christ" was the "medium".

I think you would agree with me that every baptism has: (1)a baptizer, (2)a 
baptizee, (3)a baptismal medium into which one is baptized and (4) a 
baptismal purpose. It has been my understanding so far that in the case of 
each and every baptism in scripture, the baptizer is always a person ( a 
man, a woman, or the lord Jesus, Himself) and the baptismal medium is either 
a substance (water, oil, blood, vinegar, honey, filth etc) or a person (the 
Holy Spirit).

So I'm wondering what scripture has lead you to believe that the Holy Spirit 
is the baptizer of new believers into identification with Christ?  I realize 
that I Cor 12:13 KJV reads: "For BY one spirit are we all baptized into one 
Body..."   However, I'm sure you know that the word translated "by" is the 
Greek word EN, which really means "in".

It is my belief that "baptism (of all believers) in the Spirit" was a one 
time historical fact which took place in the house in Acts 2 on the day of 
Pentecost, just like our crucifixion with Christ, and our death with Him was 
a one time historical fact that took place at Calvary when He died. So I 
believe that all references to baptism in the Holy Spirit either looked 
forward to that event, or else refer back to it.

However, I have been wrong many times and am always willing to learn and 
acknowledge I was wrong when scripture clearly demontrates that I was. So 
I'd appreciate your help in this regard. What scripture(s) have taught you 
that the Holy Spirit is ever the baptizer? If He is, who (what person) or 
what (substance) is the baptismal medium into which He places believers?

You also wrote:"Then there is the baptism of fire along with the HS at 
pentecost."

Brother, how do you consider that the appearance of "cloven tongues LIKE AS 
FIRE" which "sat upon each of them" (Acts 2:3) would ever qualify as a 
"baptism in fire" as is referred to in Mat thew 3:11 and Luke 3:16? A 
"fire-like appearance upon each one" does not sound to me like a baptism any 
more than a few drops of water on an infant's head is a baptism! It has been 
my understanding that the baptism in the Holy Ghost is the baptism of 
believers recorded historicly in Acts 2:1,2 but the baptism in fire is the 
baptism of all unbelievers in the Lake of Fire, recorded prophetically in 
Rev.20:15.   But I am certainly open to correction if you believe scripture 
clearly teaches otherwise.

Your last statement was:"This is the "one baptism" of Eph 4 and it is my 
conviction that it is the only valid baptism for this present 
dispensation/administration of God."

I agree with you that the "one baptism" of Ephesians 4 is the baptism of 
believers in the Holy Spirit. But regarding your "conviction that it is the 
only valid baptism for this present dispensation/administration of God"...I 
have a few questions:

-When the Lord Jesus commanded His disiples to go, make disciples of all 
nations, baptize those disciples in the name of the Father and of the Son 
and of the Holy Ghost and then to teach those disciples all the things that 
He had commanded them, He promised to be with them even unto the end of the 
world/age. Mat thew 28:19,20  So my question is, if this action of baptizing 
of disciples was to cease at some point between then and now, how would they 
(or we) know that we were no longer to baptize disciples? What divine 
instruction would teach that the Lord Jesus' instruction in Mat thew 28 was 
completed and was no longer valid? At what point, historicly did that take 
place?

-Re. your view of dispensations and "this present dispensation",  it is my 
conviction that a doctrine that cannot be stated in words of scripture is 
NOT a scriptural doctrine. So I wonder what statement(s) of scripture have 
lead you to believe that there are various dispensations (i.e. a 
dispensation in which baptizing disciples was a valid and God-ordained 
practice, and another dispensation extending to the present in which 
baptizing disciples is no longer a valid and God-ordained practice)?

The Greek word OIKONOMIA, the administration of a household or estate is 
translated "dispensation" or "stewardship" and appears 7 times in scripture. 
  6 of those times it is used of something being entrusted to a particular 
person who is charged with the responsibility of administering that trust 
for the one who has committed it to them.
In Luke 16:2,3and 4 the word is used 3 times of the stewardship committed to 
the unfaithful steward who was about to be put out of his "stewardship".

In I Cor.9:17 Paul is the steward to whom a dispensation was committed.1 
Corinthians 9:17

In Ephesians 3:2,  we learn that that dispensation was a stewardship of His 
relative to the grace of God which was given to him in order to benefit 
others.

In Colossians 1:25, Paul tells us that it was God who gave this stewardship 
to him and that the purpose for which it was given to Paul was "to fulfill 
the word of God".

The only usage of the word (of which I am aware) in scripture in which the 
word may be used of a particular period of time in which God works in a 
particular way is Ephesians 1:10, "the dispensation of the fullness of 
times".

Do you believe that "this present dispensation" is the dispensation of the 
fullness of times? If so, when did this dispensation begin?  If there are 
other dispensations (i.e. periods of time) of which scripture speaks, what 
are they?  I have become very suspicious of any doctrines suggested by 
others which cannot be stated in words of scripture and I have personally 
had to dispense with many such doctrines that I once held and taught to 
others. But if you can demonstrate your doctrine of dispensations with 
scriptural statements, I am ready to learn.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce

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