House Church Talk - Re: cessation of spiritual gifts

[Ross J Purdy]

Hi Bruce,

(Bruce's comments are prefaced by the right arrows and my responses are
without them.)

> You have given us the intricacies of the reasoning behind your theory that
> the gifts have ceased, but the fact that your cessationist theory CANNOT
> ANSWER simple questions demonstrates that it is just a theory that does
not
> find its'teaching stated in scripture!


You should know by now that I have an answer for everything ;) Seriously
though, scripture is where it comes from.

> Here are the questions I asked which you have utterly failed to answer:
>
> (1)I had asked:"Dear brother in what passages of scripture did Paul say:
> -that ALL the spiritual gifts of Rom.12, I Cor 12 and Eph.4 WOULD PASS
AWAY?
> -that any of them DID pass away?"

Sorry to have utterly failed to answer you, I will try to utterly rectify
that herein! From your own post Bruce:

> In I Cor.13:8-10 he wrote the following facts:
> -prophecies shall fail,
> -tongues shall cease,
> -knowledge shall vanish away.

> Since scripture NEVER SAYS what you say, you could not answer these
> questions! You simply offered you opinion which has no scriptural basis
> whatsoever.

Sure Bruce, go ahead, goad me into answering you...alright, I'll do it...
just let up on my arm there a bit. I will try to be more direct for your
sake.

>You said: "The three (tongues, prophecy and knowledge)represent
> all(19)." Nor is there a sentence of scripture that teaches that any of
the
> gifts HAD passed away during Paul's lifetime or HAVE passed away prior to
> our day!


To prove that they passed away during Paul's lifetime is not a necessity.
But there must be a time period in which we find none of these ministry
gifts, as well as, love, faith and hope remaining. Since faith and hope are
realized at the return of Christ, this period must exist between the coming
of the "perfect" and the return of Christ. Simple and Biblical!

You have a problem with Paul not taking the time to elaborate each gift.
Well, many Bible teachers see these three as representing the rest. There is
a name for this figure of speech and I can't remember it off hand. I'll have
to look it up in Keach's "Preaching from the Types and Metaphors of the
Bible" or Bullinger's "Figures of Speech in the Bible" sometime. Anyway,
look at 1Cor 12:4-10 and note that Paul divides the various manifestations
of the "spirituals" into:

1. diversities of gifts (verse 4).

2. diversities of ministrations (verse 5).

3. diversities of workings (verse 6).

How many is that?

Note all those "another"s! All except two are the greek word transliterated
"allos" which means "another of the same kind" and the exceptions are
"heteros" which means "another of a different kind." So we have:

Group A.: the word of wisdom and another (of the same kind) the word of
knowledge

Group B.: and another (of a different kind) faith and another (of the same
kind) gifts of healings and another (of the same kind) the working of
miracles and another (of the same kind) prophecy and another (of the same
kind) discerning of spirits

Group C.: and another (of a different kind) divers kinds of tongues and
another (of the same kind) the interpretation of tongues

We can see that the two use of heteros serves to break it up into three
groups.

Now jump to 1Cor 13:8

1 Corinthians 13:8 KJV

(8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies(Group B), they
shall fail; whether there be tongues(Group C), they shall cease; whether
there be knowledge(Group A), it shall vanish away.



Do I have a case?



> (2)I had asked:"What is it in this passage (I Cor.13) that identifies, to
> your mind, the coming of the Lord?
>
> You totally ignored this question, although you made the same claim in
your
> last post!


Nothing in 1Cor 13 has to do with the coming of the Lord! I do not identify
anything in 1Cor 13 with the coming of the Lord. Nothing in the context
suggests such.

>
> (3)You claim that faith remains until the coming of the Lord, but you did
> not respond to the observation that faith is one of the 19 gifts of the
> spirit which you say passed away in the first century! This is another
> indication that your theory is anything but a scriptural doctrine.
> Scriptural doctrines are not self-contradictory!

Correct, Scriptural doctrines are not self-contradictory! This is a tough
one, but I submit to you that the faith spoken as being one of the
"spirituals" is not the same as our saving faith. The (gift of) faith is
that which enables one to work miracles.

1 Corinthians 13:2 KJV

(2) And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries,
and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove
mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Mark 11:23 KJV

(23) For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain,
Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his
heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to
pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Mat thew 19:19-21 KJV

(19) Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself.

(20) The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my
youth up: what lack I yet?

(21) Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou
hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come
and follow me.



I see this as Spirit enabled faith in contrast to human exercised saving
faith.

>
> (4)I had written:"That event (the coming of "that which is perfect") marks
> the timing of 3 things:
> (1) the doing away with that which is in part (knowledge and prophecy),
> (2) the end of our seeing through a glass darkly and the beginning of our
> seeing "face to face",
> (3) Paul's knowing as he was known.
> Please explain for us how and why you have concluded that all four of
these
> things have already happened and when (at what point in history) you think
> they happened."
>
> You never explained how you understand from scripture that our "seeing
> through a glass darkly" was replaced by "seeing face to face"! Is this a
> reality in your own experience today??? Nor did you explain how Paul came
to
> "know as he was known"!


As already explained, there is required a period of time after the perfect
has come and thus the passing away of the gifts as Paul plainly states and
lasting until for as long as at least faith and hope does. It is easy to see
that the end point is the return of Christ. It leaves us with determining
what the perfect is. The perfect is denoted as that which is in contrast to
the imperfect gifts. The perfect resolves immaturity, obscurity (from dark
glass to seeing face to face, i.e., seeing clearly), lack of knowledge as
Paul states using a colloquialism: "now I know in part; but then shall I
know even as also I am known" and so these are all plainly related to the
action of the "perfect." The whole context is of edification in the Body,
its unity, and bringing the Body to a state of maturity. While the "perfect"
in this passage is rather vague, Paul is more explicit in Ephesians where we
have the same context of edification and establishing the Body and there the
"perfect" is explicitly identified as the new man having become "a perfect
man."

As far as our personal experience, we should have an unobscured (seeing as
if face to face/ direct) and full knowledge (know as he was known)
understanding of the importance of love, faith, and hope with respect to the
edification of the Body. The coming of the "perfect" or established state of
the divine institution provides the environment where that potential can be
realized for the individual. It is like the institution of an army whereby
when it is finally established, it becomes an environment where soldiers can
learn discipline and achieve rank. Before such an army/corporate
entity/institution is created and established, it is not possible for an
individual to achieve rank/maturity in something that does not exist.

>
> (5) I'd written:"Brother, it seems to me that you are saying two
> contradictory things here:
> (1) "We HAVE ALL come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of
the
> Son of God, UNTO A PERFECT (MATURE) MAN, unto the measure of the stature
of
> the fulness of Christ" and
> (2) We HAVE NOT ALL come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge
of
> the Son of God, UNTO A PERFECT (MATURE) MAN, unto the stature of the
fulness
> of Christ.
> So, brother, the big question seems to be, "Has that which is perfect
> (maturity in the Body of Christ) come or has it not?"


The "perfect" has come! Its providing for us the real possibility to grow up
spiritually. The comment is made, "Well I certainly don't see any unity of
the faith!" Well thats purely a personal problem then.

>
> You knew that to deal with the matter of who comprises the "we all" of
> Eph.4:13 and "the whole body" of Eph.4:16 would automatically scuttle the
> entire theory which you have proposed here! Both of those terms include we
> who are members of that body today as well as all who will ever be members
> of it!


The "we all" of "the whole body" has experienced (or can because it is
avaliable) the fullness of Christ and the removal of all distinctions
between Jew and Gentile. Mutual edification is the key to personal spiritual
growth and it results in further strengthening the whole. The possibility
existed because the Body exercised their gifts and would do so until the
conditions of verse 13 were to be obtained. Once obtained, they could enjoy
the mutual edification of spiritually mature members apart from what would
become increasingly superfluous gifts. The obtaining of those conditions was
God's work, not theirs. When God creates something, you know that it is good
in spite of whether individual members honor and appreciate that fact by
fitting behavior.



>
> Ross, just one final observation: You have twisted the meaning of the word
> "perfect or mature" and inserted your own interpretation as "established"!


Twisted? Brother that seems a little harsh. Perfect, mature, whole, full
grown, full age/stature, fully equipped/prepared, expert, lacking nothing,
complete, ready to function at full capacity. The idea of being fully
prepared, equipped, trained, competent, fully developed and ready for the
intended function etc., etc.,... It seemed to me that establish is a
comparable and equivalent word when applying it to a corporate entity as
opposed to a singular organic one. Of course, that is my intent, that is, to
give the meaning of the word.

> In this regard you claimed the following: " Paul was commissioned to
> minister to the new man and as in Col 1, was working towards establishing
> it."
>
> Brother, neither "the new man" nor any commission to Paul to "establish
it"
> are even mentioned in Col.1! Rather Paul was "made a minister" of "the
> gospel"! Col.1:23 He was also "made a minister" of the church which is
> Christ's body. Col.1:24,25

That is exactly what I am talking about Brother! Commission equals made a
minister which implies the intent to minister with a purpose. Try the
International Standard Version for clarity:

Colossians 1:25 ISV

(25) I became its servant according to God's commission that was given to me
for you, so that I might fulfill the ministry of the word of God.




> Finally, in Col.1:28, Paul says of Christ, the hope of glory..."Whom we
> preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we
may
> present every man perfect in Christ Jesus."
>
> This ministry of preaching and teaching Christ was NOT Paul's alone,
notice
> he uses the word "we", NOT "I". This is the ministry of every preacher and
> teacher, even today! Paul's goal and the goal of every godly preacher and
> teacher is to "present every man perfect in Christ Jesus." Although, by
the
> end of his earthly life, Paul had "finished his course", he had not
> "presented" ANY MAN perfect in Christ Jesus, let alone EVERY MAN!!

True, the ministry continues, just not by giftings anymore, rather by
leadership of the older and mature folk teaching the younger folk in the
context of the Body of Christ complete/ mature/ established/ perfect and
that not because of man's efforts, but rather by God's efforts working
through Paul and those who assisted him in that ministry of edification to
the Body unto which he was commissioned or made a minister as you would have
it! Anyone who does get presented perfect before God in this dispensation
will be because Paul fulfilled his God given commission!



>In Paul's
> final letter to Timothy (in which he wrote that he had "finished his
course"
> etc, he also wrote, "This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be
> turned away from me; " II Tim 1:15 This would hardly have been true of
> believers who were "perfect in Christ Jesus"!!!
>
> A body may be "established" long before it is mature! An immature body has
> all of it's members! A newborn infant has all of it's members but is a
long
> way from maturity! But the body of Christ does not even have all of it's
> members yet! So the time when all the members are mature has certainly NOT
> arrived yet!



Lets not get tripped up on semantics, if you don't like "establish" think of
a different one, you know what I am trying to say. Again, the perfection of
the institution is not the same as that of the individual members. The
perfection of the individual members is now possible (without gifts) because
the corporate entity has matured through Paul and company's ministry.


>
> So brother, I would encourage you to allow ALL of scripture to be the
> standard by which you evaluate every theory of men, including the theory
> that the gifts of the spirit have ceased.

Amen and Amen!


In Christ,

Ross Purdy