House Church Talk - Phil & his Visualizing

[Lee Underwood]

Jim,

I think your assessment is a little off base. I don't think anybody 
attacked Phillip. I do not feel as if I did. If that is what the feeling 
is, then it is just indicative of the problem of many Christians in the 
U.S. I just left a place where you weren't allowed to say anything or point 
out something. That is not Scriptural. Quite the opposite.

I don't buy that stuff that it's o.k. to look/inquire/do all kinds of stuff 
as God could reveal things through it. Scripture says over and over ... to 
keep focused on the things of the Kingdom not of this world.

I have to agree with several other comments that there was love intended 
here. No one was condemning Phillip for doing something. There are many 
deceptions in the world today. It is easy to get led astray. But to not be 
able to point it out to someone, that is that spirit that you can't say 
anything because it would condemn someone. The truth is hard and, in the 
church in the U.S. especially, much of it does not exist.

If something is wrong, it is wrong. It doesn't matter that God could "use" 
it. That would mean that, if God "used" someone's addiction to bring that 
person closer to Him then maybe we should help others become addicted so 
God could "use" that in their life also. To use pagan practices to draw 
close to God does not work. Don't fool your self. God will deal with what 
is there but we need to work at providing Him something more to work with.

I take offensive to your comment of shedding innocent blood (but I forgive 
you). Boy, if that is the case, then Jesus and all the disciples did their 
share of shedding innocent blood. This is not about humanism. This is about 
the Kingdom of God. I will not sit by and let pagan practices be put forth 
as ways to draw close to God. That is of Satan. Many Christians in the U.S. 
need to throw out their books and their fancy educations and their New Age 
techniques and sit and wait on the Lord. Draw near to Him. It is very 
simple, and He will answer.

Nobody "ganged up" on Phillip. What happened was a group of people, who saw 
a brother beginning to enter into error, try to help that brother out. May 
that type of attitude continue to grow!

Blessings,

Lee


At 7/23/04 11:53 PM, jim sutton wrote:
>Well, we often do run, don?t we?  Our feet so swift and eager to shed 
>innocent blood.
>
>I went back and looked again at your original post, Phil, on Visualizing 
>Christ.  And I must say I was shocked.  I saw nothing there to merit the 
>carrying on that has followed on this list.
>
>Granted, the words and terms you used historically provoke backlash from 
>Christians.  Many of us have heard the sermons, listened to the tapes, 
>read the books produced by Christian leaders against new age stuff.  And I 
>agree with the typical Christian stand against new age garbage.
>
>But Guys, stop and take a breath.  Rather than carry on, and on, and on 
>with a "friends of Job" routine, stop and see what Phil really 
>said.  Respond with reason, and not like any insect that just acts out of 
>instinct.
>
>God reveals His truth most perfectly in His Son, the Lord Jesus 
>Christ.  And He also reveals His truth perfectly in the Scriptures.  But 
>He does not stop there.
>
>Often we may hear/read a story (like Pilgrim's Progress) that is not 
>Scripture, and not the quoted words of Jesus or an apostle -- but is still 
>used of God to break thru to us with a fresh awareness of a truth.  And 
>the Lord may even use a totally secular source to rattle our brains, 
>stirring up our awareness of a truth of God.
>
>The truth does not come from the secular source, or even from the servant 
>of God.  The truth always comes from God.  And often it was already in our 
>minds. We just needed to see it from another angle to see it again.
>
>C.S. Lewis (I know, now I'm sunk) talked a lot about this in many 
>places.  He was a student of medieval literature.  And even in the most 
>ridiculous pagan sources, Lewis could see glimpses and reflections of 
>God's truth.  Granted, he agreed that they were distorted by fallen human 
>minds.  Yet he believed that the truth of God cannot be totally 
>hidden.  The Light (of John 1:4,5 & 9) shines so brightly that it touches 
>and influences even darkest humanity.
>
>And Paul saw -- even in pagan poetry -- a truth of God, as he quotes in 
>Acts 17:28: "For ?In him we live and move and have our being?; as even 
>some of your own poets have said, ?For we too are his offspring.?"
>
>(Boy, would he have been chewed on for such comments by this list!  The 
>very thought that common people are all God?s children!  If that isn?t 
>new-age, nothing is.  But was Paul really teaching that all are God?s 
>children, or simply using those words to point to a genuine truth?)
>
>Yes, we do need to stand for the truth of God's Word.  The Bible is the 
>authority over every thought, belief, and teaching.  And that should be 
>enough said, among brothers and sisters in Christ.
>
>But to gang up and try to skin a brother alive for sharing something 
>thoughtful and real is stupid and wrong.  It's time to back off and cool 
>down. Those big guns you want to aim at a good brother need to be aimed at 
>the real enemy we all have in common.
>
>Like Job of old, Phil keeps trying to explain what he means, why he has 
>taken his stand.  And like those lousy comforters of old, you keep trying 
>to find and prove the flaw.   ?Lemme at that speck there, Phil.?  And like 
>those ?friends? of Job you get even more riled up when your victim 
>complains about your attitude.
>
>This same Pharisaical attitude has already chased off a lot of good 
>brothers and sisters from this list.  Do you really want to be left with 
>just yourselves?
>
>Take a breath, Guys.  Look at your own reactions and ask the Lord for 
>wisdom here.
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>

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