House Church Talk - Re: Yet another newspaper article...

[RoyalHeirling at aol.com]

Greetings!

Thank you for all of the responses. I hear what you are saying. But I haven't 
yet heard Biblical reasons for leaving--assuming there are those who left 
because they were directed by God and not of the rebellious group mentioned in 
the replies. 

Here's my difficulty. We are not to lean to our own understanding. And, we 
are to acknowledge God in all our ways. If leaving your church was the will of 
God then there ought to be some manifest leading. It can't be based solely on 
feelings, or the leading of the "spirit". Even the spirit that leads us must be 
tested by scripture so that we can discern which spirit is leading us. 

In my own experience, as a very young "Christian," I was very critical of the 
walk of others. I thought almost everyone in the church was a sinner (and, 
indeed they are prone to sin). I was especially critical of the leadership. At 
the same time, I was doing nothing to help. I was only criticizing their 
efforts. Later I learned this was not a Christian attitude but stemmed from 
self-righteousness. I thought, if I can do so well following God's will, why can't 
others? And I judged them based on my own righteousness. We don't want to be 
saying, "I thank God I am not like him," or her, or them. When we more fully 
appreciate the holiness of God and the righteousness of Jesus, then by comparison, 
we see ourselves in a truer light--naked, weak, dirty, blind, helpless, 
hopeless, poor, wretched, and evil to the core. It is a wonder how this 
self-righteous attitude can exist today when no one today acknowledges that we can, by 
God's power, overcome the lusts of this world. It is an oxymoron. So, I hope no 
one here left for these reasons--"I can't associate with sinners."

Having ruled out self-righteousness as the reason for leaving the churches, 
let's look at some Biblical reasons I have found. Please feel free to add to 
this list if you know of other Biblical reasons for leaving.

1) We are not to associate with fornicators. 

I think this refers to open fornication. Yet, I think the fornicator is to be 
expelled from the church so that he gets the message that he must repent and 
desist.

2) We are thrown out. 

This one is obvious. You can't force yourself upon them. But, what if we were 
thrown out because we raised so much trouble. I once knew about a group of 
"Christian" who sang so loudly so as to annoy people. They brought persecution 
upon themselves in this way and then patted themselves on the back that they 
must be godly because of the persecution. So, if we bring about our expulsion 
because we can't get along with others, well, enough said.

3) "Come out of her My people." 

This must be doctrinally based in its intent due to the proceeding verses 
about the "wine of the wrath of her fornication" and the enormity of her iniquity 
even "reaching to heaven." These people are not purifying themselves because 
they have not believed, or perhaps, not heard, the true gospel as it is in 
Jesus. Thus, they follow a false religion with false doctrines, a false god with 
false hope. Terrible! But the call does come for them to come out. Hope they 
hear!

Just so you know a little about me. I was baptized in the fall of 1995. I was 
baptized in an IC but had been attending home church in the mountains above 
Bakersfield, California. I was happy to be with that group for a time, but 
gradually they fell back into the main focus which was criticizing the church. 
They spent a good portion of their time reassuring themselves that they had it 
all together while the IC--which, by the way threw them out because they were 
trouble makers--was the pit of iniquity, the "Babylon" of Revelation. As I 
sought after God, the line between us grew wider until I separated myself from them 
entirely. At this point, they became very bold in manifesting their true 
purpose for unity. Now I still attend what you would call an IC. I attend the 
Seventh-day Adventist church in Virginia. Does this church have it's share of 
problems? Sure, they all do. But I do see a brotherhood and a desire to follow 
God's will. We all need the companionship of others. It helps to keep the flock 
going in a straighter line when they all press together for the good of each 
other. When one strays left or right, the body brings them back to center. It 
guards against fanaticism and extremism. 

I have been participating and lurking here at House Church Talk  for years. How many, 
David? I don't recall, but certainly over 5 years.

Now, back to something else I have witnessed. There are those who are 
"preaching" for others to leave the IC because of various reasons, mostly for the 
fact it is an established religion. I don't see this message coming from God. 
There is a message to come out of her [Babylon], but as I said earlier, this is 
doctrinally based. When I heard this one fellow preach the hc "come out" 
message it sounded more like a self-righteous works, as if salvation was to be found 
in separating oneself from one type of organization and joining a "better" 
one. Is there any hope in a works-based religion? No, of course not. The IC is 
presented as evil merely because of its organizational characteristics. Nothing 
is ever said about its teachings [doctrines]. We need to look at the 
doctrines. Do they promote spiritual growth out of sin and into purity in Jesus? Or, 
do they, as Revelation points out, allow the adherents to retain all of their 
worldliness--not being different from those in the world--and promise them a 
false hope? This is what I believe is the issue in Revelation's message, "Come 
out of her." We need to come out and hear the good news. The good news is, 
after all, that Jesus died to save us from our sins. He wants to present us 
spotless and without blemish. We should be pressing onward toward this high calling 
instead of being content to remain servants of sin. 

That's what I believe the call in Revelation is all about. It is not to leave 
a hierarchical organization to join a loosely banded group of home 
churches--though I am not saying the hc could not provide the needed environment to 
press onward. What I am questioning is the intent of each hc. Is their intent to 
leave "Babylon" and all of its false doctrines [the wine that produces wrath 
that the whole world is drinking]? Or, is their intent to leave a well-organized 
religious system to join a "dis"-organized group of believers? Personally, I 
think there is a mixture of both. 

Please don't think I am here to criticize you or the hc. I have identified 
myself with you. I am only raising these questions so we can take a closer look 
at ourselves, as others see us, and grow in unity of purpose and reasons for 
our hope. Is our hope in the lack of organization? Do we believe that the 
answer lies in throwing off the yoke of organized religion? Or, is our hope in 
Jesus and His ability to purify each of us, to remove the enmity for His law and 
bring in perfect love, to bring peace where there was punishment and guilt and 
fear because of our sins, and to justify us by His blood and help us remain 
just by His righteous life? Which ever it is, I think you will find it to be our 
main theme. By our fruits they will know us. By the things we present most 
often, others will judge as most valuable to hc. Thus, our discussion topics 
will manifest our outward character to the world as a witness. 

I realize this is long. A lot longer than I had intended for it to be. I 
don't write often, but this question has been on my mind for years. 

I also want to thank David for providing this forum for so many years and 
attempting to do a good work by encouraging unity via the communications vehicle 
of the Internet to these dispersed groups of believers around the world. May 
God be our guide.

(If you would like to respond to this post, the question is "What Biblical 
reason do we have for leaving the IC? Is it based solely on the hierarchy of the 
IC, or their teachings?" There may be other opportunities to respond but this 
is my focus. Please make the answer to this question your primary focus if 
you wish to respond to me. Thanks.)

Sincerely,

Jeff in Richmond, VA


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[God's] heart of love is touched by our sorrows and even 
by our utterances of them. Take to Him everything that 
perplexes the mind. Nothing is too great for Him to bear, 
for He holds up worlds, He rules over all the affairs of the 
universe. Nothing that in any way concerns our peace is 
too small for Him to notice.
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