House Church Talk - Alexander Strauch on Biblical Eldership

[Sean Kelly]

Well said brother! Eldership, and how the denominations interpret it,
was one of the things that helped me out of the institutional mindset.
Jesus himself constantly battled the establishment thinking (Mat
23:2-10, Luke 22:25-27) In fact, my wife pointed out this weekend, the
Father himself had to interupt Peter's establishment enthusiasm (Mat
17:1-6) Paul pleaded with his readers to follow his example. (Phil 3:17,
2Thess 3:7) He asked Timothy and Titus to be examples. (1Tim 4:12, Titus
2:7) 

The writer of Hebrews said, "Remember those who led you, who spoke the
word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate
their faith." There are older brothers in the faith than myself. I need
to recognize their conduct and the results thereof and imitate their
faith. Further, there are younger brothers in the faith than myself. I
need to recognize this and understand that my faith and conduct is an
example to them.

Go Carefully,
SeanK

-----Original Message-----
From: House Church Talk -bounces at housechurch.org
[mailto:House Church Talk -bounces at housechurch.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Schreiber
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 2:51 PM
To: House Church Talk  at housechurch.org
Subject: Re: House Church Talk -  Alexander Strauch on Biblical Eldership

Gary and Dan,
Continuing in these themes, I think Gary's likening of the Israelites'
desire for a king, as with the nations, and as a rejection of the Lord
Himself as King, parallels well the common desire seen in our religious
organizations today to have one man as leader--"the pastor."  The
"pastorate" in the typical church is much like a succession of kings, in
that only one man at a time is permitted to hold the position of "senior
pastor."  By contrast the "eldership" (I Tim. 4:14) is an ever-evolving
co-equal plurality of men, with those serving in oversight desiring to
raise up the men of the assembly acceleratedly to maturity, and to
service alongside them.

Grace in Christ,
Glenn S.



On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:42:38 -0500 "Gary" <isa30 at verizon.net> writes:
> Interesting thoughts, Dan.
> 
> Let me suggest that that the Biblical example for a position within 
> the church that would help the church (living bricks only, please!) 
> deal with its responsibilities would be that of an elder, which we 
> understand to be a Christian who has been given by God to pastor, 
> teach, and counsel.
> Since all
> authority in heaven and on earth has already been given to Jesus 
> Christ, man can only function as His delagate.
> 
> I often wonder if the tremendous push toward whatever organizational 
> structure that may exist in an IC is borne of 1 Samuel 8 -
> 
> 1 And it came about when Samuel was old that he appointed his sons 
> judges over Israel.2 Now the name of his firstborn was Joel, and the 
> name of his second, Abijah; they were judging in Beersheba.3 His sons,

> however, did not walk in his ways, but turned aside after dishonest 
> gain and took bribes and perverted justice.4 Then all the elders of 
> Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah; 5 and they said 
> to him, "Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your

> ways. Now appoint a king for us to judge us like all the nations." 6 
> But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, 
> "Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the LORD. 7 The 
> LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to 
> all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they 
> have rejected Me from being king over them. 8 "Like all the deeds 
> which they have done since the day that I brought them up from Egypt 
> even to this day-in that they have forsaken Me and served other 
> gods-so they are doing to you also. 9 "Now then, listen to their 
> voice; however, you shall solemnly warn them and tell them of the 
> procedure of the king who will reign over them." 10 So Samuel spoke 
> all the words of the LORD to the people who had asked of him a king. 
> 11 He said, "This will be the procedure of the king who will reign 
> over you: he will take your sons and place them for himself in his 
> chariots and among his horsemen and they will run before his chariots.
> 12 "He will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and of 
> fifties, and some to do his plowing and to reap his harvest and to 
> make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 "He will 
> also take your daughters for perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 "He 
> will take the best of your fields and your vineyards and your olive 
> groves and give them to his servants.
> 15 "He
> will take a tenth of your seed and of your vineyards and give to his 
> officers and to his servants. 16 "He will also take your male servants

> and your female servants and your best young men and your donkeys and 
> use them for his work. 17 "He will take a tenth of your flocks, and 
> you yourselves will become his servants. 18 "Then you will cry out in 
> that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but

> the LORD will not answer you in that day." 19 Nevertheless, the people

> refused to listen to the voice of Samuel, and they said, "No, but 
> there shall be a king over us, 20 that we also may be like all the 
> nations, that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our

> battles." 21 Now after Samuel had heard all the words of the people, 
> he repeated them in the LORD'S hearing. 22 The LORD said to Samuel, 
> "Listen to their voice and appoint them a king." So Samuel said to the

> men of Israel, "Go every man to his city."
> 
> Is this a perfect model for the IC or not? ANd does it not reflect the

> heart of men in this world to so deliberately reject the word of God, 
> even when directly spoken by Him, to His face?  I Regret that I have 
> done that myself, and prayer that the Holy Spirit would keep me 
> mindful of my need to repent when such raises its head to attempt to 
> make me stumble.
> 
> Earnestly contending, your borther in Christ.,
> 
> Gary
> 
> (Written using WindowEyes, the premier screenreading program from GW 
> Micro that makes PCs accessible to the blind and visually impaired.
> Contact:
> www.gwmicro.com)
> 
> "Preach not only so that the people can understand, but so that they 
> cannot misunderstand if they wish."  CH.Spurgeon
> 
> "Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. 
> Put on the
> full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the 
> schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood,

> but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces 
> of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the 
> heavenly places.
> Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to 
> resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm."
> Ephesians
> 6:10-13
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DanG" <dan.dgordon at gmail.com>
> To: <House Church Talk  at housechurch.org>
> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 12:58 PM
> Subject: Re: House Church Talk -  Alexander Strauch on Biblical Eldership
> 
> 
> > Glenn wrote:
> > > Dan G.--
> > > Very hurriedly I'll seek to answer some things from your post
> this
> > > morning.  First of all, the Lord has used Alex Strauch to
> benefit our
> > > family in various ways over the past ten years.  He was very
> gracious in
> > > helping us connect with a small gathering of saints in our area
> early on
> > > in our relationship.  I would say he is not at all your typical
> "Plymouth
> > > Brethren."  He has promoted Spirit-led brotherly interaction in
> the face
> > > of a movement which is fast moving towards more clerical
> sensibilities
> > > (despite its roots emphasizing the co-equality and "priesthood
> of
> > > believers").  [He has also defended the doctrines of grace while
> others
> > > have been taken in by pragmatism and antinomianism.]
> > >
> > > As for the prospect of a "cessation theory of elders" (;-9), I
> would
> > > propose that the New Testament presents co-equal plurality of
> exemplary
> > > older men in oversight as an apostolic tradition to be followed 
> > > throughout the age.  Many today are denying the complementary
> truths of
> > > the "church" in two senses--"the church" as the one body of
> Christ (Eph.
> > > 4:5), and "the churches" (I Cor. 11:16, 14:34) plural, in which
> the
> > > saints are gathered together.  It may be that an aversion to
> any
> > > leadership at all is an overreaction to the prevalent lordliness
> and
> > > clerical-mindedness which we see in the denominations which we
> have
> fled.
> > > [To put all this into somewhat of a prophetic perspective then,
> perhaps
> > > in overreaction to the doctrine of the Nicolaitans and Balaam
> > > (authoritarianism) the doctrine of Jezebel (egalitarianism) has
> arisen.
> > > It seems that ultimately the two doctrines tend to work hand in
> hand in
> > > keeping the saints from the preeminence of the Lord Jesus.]
> > >
> > > Out of time to write on these things for now...
> > >
> > > Grace in Christ,
> > > Glenn S.
> >
> > Thanks for the interaction, Glenn.
> >
> > That is good news about Mr. Strauch - I just know that the
> plymouth
> > brethren can be as you also characterized them - quite parochial
> at
> > times.  And you seem to know Mr Strauch there in Littleton, CO,
> still?
> >  I may have heard him several times as my mother attended that 
> > assembly for some time, and we were in a new assembly in CSpgs
> some 15
> > years back.
> >
> > I also appreicate your comments on throwing out leadership - I
> hear
> > those comments loud and clear.  However, there needs to be an
> equal
> > caution which I know you hear loud and clear, that we not slip
> into an
> > assumption of ecclesiastical order since that is what we
> understand to
> > be written about in the Bible.  This type of order established
> and
> > demanded among men can be a detriment to the work of God among men
> if
> > the structure which we assume to be the understood manner of the
> Bible
> > is not able to be seen or implemented among us as we gather.  
> Indeed,
> > as you point toward, age and experience speak loud and clear when
> it
> > is God who has done the cultivating.  Equally so, Paul must have
> been
> > somewhat of a young guy when he attempted to enter Damascus - God
> had
> > grown him also.
> >
> > Somehow, attentiveness seems to focus on "what is proper" or
> "whad
> > does the Bible say" to the detriment of other perhaps more
> important
> > things - I leave the enumeration of both these categories to each
> of
> > you to fill in the blank - but for this thread, we probably are 
> > speaking about leadership to the detriment of (_______ fib?).  I
> am no
> > loosey goosey about what we may be ignoring - I am probably to
> the
> > right of utilla the hun on most things really.  Hence, my
> suggestion
> > would be that we are not taking to task the reality of God in our 
> > lives and assembly as we can/should, perhaps.  Not too many 
> > generations have had a Bible to have in their posession, this is
> one
> > huge blessing to us today.  And, this blessing does not come to us
> at
> > the hand of a printing press only.  It has been hard won for us
> today,
> > and lives were strained or lost in the process of arriving at a
> hugely
> > authoritative version for us english readers.  This is a provision
> of
> > God to us today, and I take that to be one hugely serious
> blessing,
> > and in the face of numerous other challenges to the authority of
> God
> > and the salvation which God has mastered for me in Jesus Christ -
> For
> > he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might
> be
> > made the righteousness of God in him.  Therefore, I am skeptical
> and
> > interested in dialogs that entertain the function and personality
> of
> > leadership in the assembly.  Too many problems can be identified
> with
> > leadership, and good leadership - we are reading 2Chronicles in
> our
> > meeting tomorrow.  That account has leadership importance written
> all
> > over it.  And, today is no different among men.  However, God has 
> > given us the Bible.  And the Bible points throughout to Jesus
> Christ
> > alone - there is no other.  Can it not be cultivated that this 
> > leadership is core? and needs to be accosted as core? more
> vigorously?
> >  We can argue about the downfalls of this, perhaps, but we
> already
> > know the downfalls of leadership as we conceive it today - much
> of
> > which is poor and leading quickly in poor directions.
> > DanG ChicagoArea
> >
> >
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> >
> 
>      
>     
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