Rebuilding the Ancient Ruins
I don't know if I put this in the right category, but...
I know many people have had bad experiences with churches, doctrines, and experiences having to do with apostles, prophets, and pastors because most of the current ones are frauds. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I want to share a vision I had about those three ministries and ask for people's thoughts.
In 2016, in Bellingham, WA, a christian paralegal was praying with me for God to bless Bellingham. As he prayed, the Lord began to show me a three-part vision:
1.) In the first vision, I saw an ocean, and the entire Body of Christ was submerged under it and unable to function. Above the water, though invisible in the vision, were the pastors. Then Jesus explained that this was the current church model under pastoral ministry and that the pastors hold the Body 'underwater', making the Body unable to function and practically useless.
2.) In the second vision, I saw a prison cell that was underground, and inside it were seven men dressed in ancient robes (like those worn in Bible times). The men mostly stood, quietly praying and waiting for the time of their release. Then Jesus explained that these seven men represented the genuine prophetic ministry and were waiting for Him to release them to go and set free the Body of Christ which was in bondage ('underwater').
3.) In the third vision, I was inside an ancient tomb (like those in Bible days) and saw a solitary man inside the tomb, sitting to my left on a bier or the stone table where dead bodies are laid. He was deep in thought as he waited for his release from the tomb. Then I was outside the tomb and looking at the circular stone over its entrance. Then, as I watched, Jesus Himself walked up from the right, put His hands on the tombstone, rolled it to the left of the doorway (so that the doorway was now open), and sat on it. I recognized that this was exactly how the angel opened the door on Jesus's tomb. Then Jesus explained that the solitary man sitting inside the tomb represented the genuine apostolic ministry and that the apostolic ministry must be released first before the rest of the genuine five-fold ministries (eg. the prophetic ministry) and the Body of Christ can be released into and restored their inheritance in Christ as a corporate Body.
Many people realize that the overall modern church is in ruins. Isaiah 58:12 says, "Those from among you will rebuild the ancient ruins; you will raise up the foundations of many generations; and you shall be called the Repairer of the Breach, the Restorer of Streets to Dwell In." It seems like Heaven's plan is to send/release the apostolic ministry (who Paul called "master builders") first to begin the process of rebuilding the Church that religion (and many pastors) turned into ruins. Does this resonate with anyone?
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· Dan Beaty
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While I agree that the problems you mention here do exist in the modern church, I would like to point out that God still has many faithful churches and church leaders who do not "hold the people underwater." In many cases it is the concept of leader/laity division that hinders both. At the same time those who love God serve Him wholeheartedly in spite of this prevailing concept.
You are right in your warning to not "throw out the baby with the bathwater." Too many have rejected what they need very much, the gifts God has given to the church. The vision you shared is encouraging and supports what the scriptures teach about God's purpose for His church in Ephesians 4:11-13. Our greatest days are yet ahead! Thanks for sharing.0 0 0 0 0 0 0-
You said, "While I agree that the problems you mention here do exist in the modern church, I would like to point out that God still has many faithful churches and church leaders who do not 'hold the people underwater.'"
That wasn't the scope of the vision. Part of the scope of the vision was that generally speaking, pastors keep the body of Christ in bondage, knowingly or not. And for those who realize that there are different types of 'bondage' and that 'bondage' manifests in different ways, it's true.
Furthermore, God often speaks in generalities in order to communicate important or/and 'majority truth' as well as to cut to the chase (and allow the Holy Spirit to explain further for those who need it). Jesus included all the Pharisees when He rebuked them. Yet, He knew about Pharisees like Nicodemus (and Joseph of Arimathea) and other Pharisees who welcomed Him into their hearts and homes, but Jesus never specifically distinguished the godly Pharisees from the ungodly ones. This was because there's a time to generalize and a time to be specific, and when Jesus was talking to crowds of commonfolk or groups of Pharisees, generalizing was proper. When He talked to Pharisees individually, then being specific would be fitting. The apostles also accused Jews who weren't present at Jesus's death for His death because in that context, though Stephen later lost his life because of the same principle, it was proper to state that all Jews (just like all men) killed Jesus.
I think when God makes a generalization we should just let Him do so. If we need an explanation we should ask Him for clarification rather than saying, "Not so, Lord."
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· Dan Beaty
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· Robert A. Foster
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Hello Valley Ant
I actually grew up in the Bellingham area and that is where I started my Christian /Prophetic Journey. Long story short, this is also where I started my first house church.
Your vision is a good, detailed vision that does make a lot of sense, it make sense because it fits with many other prophetic insights. Let me explain.
In the 80s I climbed up the side of Stuart mountain and had an open vision. It was of a giant spider running all over the county. Whenever any spiritual activity took place it would go to that place and increase it’s web. The Lord showed this web is a web of Lethargy and Complacency and with it the enemy uses it to keep God people UNDER the water.
Then in the 1990s
I ran into a person of similar gifting to mine. He works as a contractor and has told me many times in various places of the feeling that the Body was under heavy water.
Around 1986 a contractor was sent by the Lord from Oregon to come and pray for the area. He climbed up Haystack hill (Sumas area) in the summer. What he saw scarred him so much he went back to Oregon. In the vision it was the middle of winter, all the trees were gone because the refugees had used them for firewood to keep warm. This sight stretched all the way to Vancouver BC.
The fact that your vision is connecting all this to leadership makes sense. I can’t tell how many times I ran into issues with local leadership. Without going into detail on this platform, I can say this, there really are wolves in sheep’s clothing out there. And not everyone claiming Apostolic or Prophetic gifting is real.
That is one of the reason I no longer live there.
Dan Beaty is right, there are many good leaders and I have met several on my travels around the United States and many I would call friend and brother. However I strongly feel what you have is VERY local to your area.
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1. The vision was a word of wisdom about the Church in general as well as the churches in Bellingham. The paralegal (who had a pastor's heart) was praying and would often pray for God to bless the city which God already wanted to do. The vision was telling him not to pray for God to bless but to pray for God to release the 'carriers of the blessings' as His vessels to bless the city. The prophetic and apostolic ministries in the vision were imprisoned (the prophets- Matthew 14) and condemned to death (the apostles- 1Cor. 4:9) which reveals that the enemy is holding back and oppressing these ministries as he always has since the OT and NT.
2. "As the head goes, so goes the rest of the body." This is practically always true across realms (eg. physical, soul, and spirit), across kingdoms (eg. God's and satan's kingdoms), and across even truths and principles (eg. the Law of First Mention). In late 2003, I was praying in tongues when the Holy Spirit began to travail through me (never a nice experience). He was weeping and praying about the global and America's churches' leaders and their culture of sin, compromise, and lack of power (He gave me the interpretation), and so I was weeping as well though at the time I hadn't really experienced the leadership problem much. But between then and now, I've seen enough to know why He was weeping and groaning and travailing over not the church but its leaders.
In Bellingham, I met the false prophet that the enemy placed as a leader among the churches. This false prophet started rumors about me and the principalities over the city and the satanists (satanists secretly own the city) got behind him to drive me out. But I met the genuine prophet who God set it in the city to bring revival. Unlike the false prophet, the genuine prophet was suffering tremendously unlike I had ever seen. God put me with him for a type of mentoring, but unfortunately, this prophet became offended at me after I had the above 3-part vision and he cut ties with me because he became envious. I'm currently in a place of needing to hear from God about my next step as I'm basically 'in the wind' right now.
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· Robert A. Foster
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· Todd Buiten
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I'll be the first to admit that I've never had a vision like yours so it can be hard for me to relate to your experience. That being said, we do have an easy way to understand our dreams, and that is to compare them with Scripture. You said that your vision led you to believe that the church is in ruins. When I look at the institutional church of today compared to the Biblical standard, it seems to me that the church is simply being unfaithful to our Savior's commands. Despite her unfaithfulness, Christ's Bride is still able to articulate the core truth of the Gospel, namely, that Jesus is God Incarnate and that He died for our sins. Many institutional churches then layer on all sorts of rules and regulations that are nowhere to be found in the Bible. But does all that extra junk negate the Gospel message? Does the light of Christ not shine through our darkness regardless?
Before I was kicked out of my last church for refusing to obey the Elder's commands regarding Communion observance, I had many conversations with my fellow congregants about my concern that the church leadership had usurped Christ's authority in the operation of the church. Interestingly enough, while many still encouraged me to be obedient to those leaders, there were also those who sympathetic to my concern about Christ's lordship over His church. Not a single person I spoke with disputed that the church belongs to Christ and to Him alone.
It is because of this that I am greatly encouraged for the future of the church. Over the last year I have found myself in agreement with those here that the clergy/laity system is unBiblical and needs reform. But that reform can only come about when we first recognize that we have only one true Head of the Church. We need to leave all the other nonsense behind and focus just on Him. And there is nothing that I know of, besides our own sin, that prevents us from pursuing that goal right now. May God give us the wisdom and courage and strength to pursue His kingdom reign and righteousness.
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You wrote, "You said that your vision led you to believe that the church is in ruins." Fascinating how our five physical senses can interpret even plain things so wrongly. When I read "You said that your vision led you to believe that the church is in ruins" I nearly wept several times. The churches are in ruins. They're in shambles. We're just accustomed to shambles, confusion, scraps, and trickle blessings and think what we're used to is the actual truth, the correct pattern, the Heavenly blueprint, and Jesus's standard.
If you can't see the ruins of the churches, then please pray for spiritual sight like Elisha prayed for his servant. It's plain if you look with spiritual eyes. I didn't need the vision to tell me that. (In the OT we see God's city and temple in ruins many times, needing to be rebuilt.) The vision wasn't talking about the state of the churches but the state of most pastors, the state of the leaders God appointed to build and establish the churches, and mostly the primary need for the Church and God's foremost method to bless or manifest God's blessings in a city or region which are the apostolic and prophetic ministries (as the Bible bears witness to).
You wrote, "Despite her unfaithfulness, Christ's Bride is still able to articulate the core truth of the Gospel, namely, that Jesus is God Incarnate and that He died for our sins." How can a broken vessel work correctly? The churches can't articulate the truth clearly while they're broken, otherwise the churches wouldn't need to be restored. The light of Christ is and can be suppressed by darkness. The entire Bible makes this clear. One of the reasons God refines His people is to purify them so they will be clean channels-- or transparent rather than opaque or translucent channels-- of Jesus's light, love, and Life.
I'm not encouraged about anything regarding the churches-- past, present, or future. I'm only encouraged that sooner or later, God has promised to be glorified through His Church. Jesus is the only head of the Church, but He set ministries in the Church whose function will never cease to be legitimate and relevant until the very end of time as the Bible says. These are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. And as the Bible plainly states, Jesus set apostles and prophets as the foundation of the Church with Jesus Himself being the cornerstone. If we're too hard-hearted to adhere to the foundational things and the things that are plainly written in the Pages, then any wisdom, courage, or strength we think we have is obsolete and will do us no good. There's no piety or righteousness in editing God's Word because our intentions are good or because some people have misused and defiled certain truths in His Word.
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Todd, you wrote:
But that reform can only come about when we first recognize that we have only one true Head of the Church. We need to leave all the other nonsense behind and focus just on Him. And there is nothing that I know of, besides our own sin, that prevents us from pursuing that goal right now. May God give us the wisdom and courage and strength to pursue His kingdom reign and righteousness.
Years ago I began hearing an emphasis on the apostolic and prophetic ministries and some who imagined the 5-fold ministries in Ephesians 4:11 as "headship" over the body of Christ.
While I believe that God still gives these gifts to the church to build us up, I see a great danger in exalting them up in this way.
On the other hand, like you, I look for reasons to be encouraged and try to encourage others. Many in our circles look for opportunities to serve rather than to be served. They know that pastors and teachers have their part, but also that everyone of us has a purpose in the Lord's kingdom.0 0 0 0 0 0 0
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· Todd Buiten
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· David Anderson
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Somewhere out there is a new era or dispensation. Good people can disagree about the when. An era in which "He must reign." Interestingly, this precedes - not follows - the last enemy which is death.
Therefore, I will keep praying and hoping that his will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET.
But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
ValleyAnt, your user ID reminds us of God's super-amazing creation. Good. Can you imagine if humans could proportionally lift as much as the humble ant? We would be walking around with car and trucks on our shoulders rather than riding in them...
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I don't concern myself with or focus my time on doctrines that are not immediately important or pertinent. "Lord... I do not concern myself with great matters, with things too profound for me" (Ps. 131:1).
One of these doctrines is eschatology and all things regarding the second coming. Before Jesus ascended, His disciples asked Him if He was going to restore Israel at that time. He replied, "It is not for you to know the times and dates the Father has set by His own authority." Shortly after, when He ascended to Heaven and the disciples stood looking after Him, two angels suddenly appeared and said to the disciples, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven." Or in contemporary language, "Why are you focused on what is to come? Go and focus on the business of what already is." (Acts 1:4-12.)
While there is a place for 'secondary doctrines', there should be no focus or over-focus on them. People who focus on doctrines of eschatology and things surrounding them are peering into the sky, watching for signs, the rapture, and the second coming. But Jesus would tell them what the angels told the disciples many years ago-- that they should not be looking into (concerning themselves with) those things as those things will work themselves out in time, but that they should be focused on the work at hand and obedience regarding that: "Wait in the city until you have been endued by power from on high." Etc.
An era is coming when Jesus will reign, yes. There are times of refreshing, renewal, revival, reformation, and restoration on the horizon as well. "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:19-21). Those times and eras aren't to be a focus at this time, however.
Hidden (veiled, disguised) as the smallest creature in the lowest place, a symbol of weakness and obscurity, it actually symbolizes might, power, strength, and victory:
ValleyAnt = Valiant.
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David, When I read Paul's exhortation to "rejoice evermore, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks," I can fully appreciate the value of studying biblical prophesy. Not all views of prophesy are optimistic. Some really could knock the wind out of a persons zeal.
On the other hand, friends like you and others who have looked more carefully at the whole of scripture, and have a clear view of our exalted Lord, already reigning over His realm, are a breath of fresh air.
I find it sad that all the confusion and debate over the promises and prophecies of the bible have caused many to avoid any discussion altogether. If all I could see was what the devil is doing and not have my eyes open to our Lord enthroned, I would be most miserable.Somewhere out there is a new era or dispensation. Good people can disagree about the when. An era in which "He must reign." Interestingly, this precedes - not follows - the last enemy which is death.
Therefore, I will keep praying and hoping that his will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET.
But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
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· David Anderson