House Church Talk - Re: Culting of the HC movement -response from John White

Scott Dowlen scottdowlen at
Sat Aug 7 15:06:50 EDT 2004

I think, if I recall, that passing along the messages is against the list
policy. I may be thinking of another list.

Regardless, sending the messages along without the context of the whole
discussion, and without preparing an IC minister for the real, raw, HC view
is unfair to John White and us, too.

Obviously, he is unclear where we are coming from and feels attacked. I can
sympathize deeply with that feeling. He did not have the advantage of
discussing this in the context of a relationship or commonality in Christ,
and may feel quite blind-sided by the feedback he's getting.

I also understand your intention, and appreciate your desire for openness
and honesty. I just think this wasn't the way to do it.

John is free to join is this conversation (IMO) by becoming a member and
getting to know more about the folks and views found here. We may also learn
a lot from him. If I felt the need to confront him on his error or 'take him
aside' as Priscilla and Aquila did for Apollos, I would certainly have done
so, to the extent possible given that I have no relational context in which
to do that. The first step would not have been to blast him, but to open up
a dialog and build whatever kind of mutual understanding and common ground
we could find.  After this, it may be a very difficult thing to establish.

I pray that I am wrong...

Scott Dowlen

> -----Original Message-----
> From: House Church Talk -bounces at
> [mailto:House Church Talk -bounces at]On Behalf Of His Servant
> Sent: Saturday, 07 August, 2004 12:35 PM
> To: House Church Talk
> Subject: House Church Talk -  Re: Culting of the HC movement -response from John
> White
> I have been sending the observations posted on this list to
> John White because he originally sent out the Covenant HC
> overseers.  Here is his response.  I think this was written
> in response to a comment from Claire.  Maybe he should joing
> the conversation (my intent when sending this to him)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: DenverWH at
> To: His_Servant_4evr at
> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 9:04 AM
> Subject: Re: House Church Talk -  Culting of the HC movement
> I'm not sure who you are since there is no name attached to
> this email.
> You apparently feel that the Covenant for Simple Church
> Overseers does not square with your understanding of Biblical
> values.  This is certainly a reasonable topic for discussion.
>  However, have some observations about the way you are
> raising the issues.
> 1.  Seems to me that Jesus' model was that if you have a
> problem with someone, you would go to them privately first
> with a desire to 'win your brother'.
> 2.  Your criticism are extremely harsh and sarcastic.  "A new
> market to exploit...imposed hierarchal business management
> structure...far more sinister...horrid...cult"  This type of
> language doesn't sound like Jesus at all and certainly
> doesn't invited dialogue.  Is this the way that mature,
> responsible Christians treat each other?
> 3.  You were not seeking any more information.  You didn't
> ask any questions.  Are you quite sure you understand this
> particular network well enough to publically brand it a
> "cult"?  Are you quite sure that you know Tim Pynes and
> myself well enough to imply that we are "cult" leaders?
> John White
> In a message dated 8/7/2004 1:51:15 AM Mountain Daylight
> Time, His_Servant_4evr at writes:
> > Covenant for Simple Church Overseers in New Heart Community
> Well, it looks like the Florida five moved to Denver.  Ah, a
> new market to
> exploit.  One grassroots movement + imposed hierarchal
> business management
> structure = well manicured and landscaped lawns behind tall
> fences.  This is
> far more sinister than IC leadership structure.  As I
> mentioned previously
> about the hc situation, When she was good she was very, very
> good, and when
> she was bad, she was horrid."
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