House Church Talk - Re: Was baptisms Now dispensations/ Preterism

Bruce Woodford bwood4d at
Mon Feb 9 22:27:01 EST 2004

Hi Dan,

Regarding what you wrote to Scott, I have a few comments which I'll insert 
into yours:
You wrote:"Scott - keep the comments coming. I only defend as much as I know 
and I don't know much, but I have thoughts on some of what you say.
1)scripture writing was completed before AD70 so 2nd coming would not be 
written there. "

Brother, where did you learn that all of scripture was written before A.D. 
Relative to events and the dates of the writing of the various epistles 
which have been put in the margins of my Bible (The Newberry Reference Bible 
KJV), I found the following dates of writing from A.D.67 onward:
A.D.67 -the final events of Acts 28,
A.D.68 -Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Hebrews
A.D.69 - I Timothy, Titus
A.D.70 -II Timothy, II Peter, Jude
A.D. 94 - I, II and III John and the Revelation
I'm sure that if Jesus had returned in A.D. 70, John surely would have said 
something about it!

You wrote:"If Jesus came tomorrow, it would not be there either - that's my 
point. And don't believe history - believe the Bible. To say that the 
destruction of Jerusalem was anything but spectacular would be a gross 
misnomer. It disappeared. That is spectacular. 2)Roman occupation against 
that area began AD67 from what I have learned. Placing AD70 at the middle of 
that and 7 years is very able to be accomplished. Ultimately, if it happened 
then, there is no believable record of what happened and most probably, we 
will die without seeing this."

Dear brother, it seems to me like you are saying two contradictory things 
within a few sentences! You say, "Don't believe history" and then you speak 
about the dates and details of the Roman occupation and destruction of  
Jerusalem! Where do you get your details, dates etc, if not from "secular" 
historians???   Why do you say there is no believeable record of what 
happened?   What of historians of the period such as Josephus?

You wrote:"So, if we live with this hope that Jesus will come - fine, but 
realistically, we probably won't see it. So, we can live with that. Or, what 
would it be if we lived as if Jesus did come at/near AD70? What does the 
Bible expose about that type of thing? Is there mind given to live with 
today regarding that? This is not a rhetorical question for me, it is a 
question that perhaps we can seek for a modicum of an answer together? "

Dear brother, the revelation of the Lord Jesus is the major event toward 
which all of human history has been moving! It is an event which John 
prophesied when he wrote the Revelation in A.D.94! It is an event which 
EVERY EYE shall see! (Rev.1:7) So if it had already occurred there would be 
more eye witnesses to that one event than of any other event of history!  
Such an event does not just slip by unnoticed and unrecorded by anybody!!! 
So to even hypothesize about the coming of the Lord Jesus in A.D. 70 is 
utterly unrealistic! It not only denies the facts of recorded history, but 
the facts of recorded prophecy (The Revelation)!

You wrote:"3)This question about kingdom assumes only traditional 
dispensations as the influence for all thought. Think with me for the sake 
of dialog - what kind of questions would you ask about this? Does the 
kingdom come immediately after Jesus' appearance? Is there Bible reasons to 
say this is not the kingdom? Other questions?"

Dan, many of us have rejected the dispensational scheme of things simply 
because there are no scriptural statements to provide any sort of scriptural 
fact to demonstrate (1) a 7 year tribulation, (2)a pre-tribulation rapture , 
(3)the "imminency doctrine" of the Lord's return, (4)that the Lord will come 
in the clouds, catch believers up to meet him in the clouds and then take a 
"u-turn" and return to heaven!  BUT, the rejection of "traditional 
dispensationalism" does not mean rejecting the scriptures and clearly stated 
facts and prophecies of scripture! Rather statements of the very words of 
scripture teach that the Lord comes AFTER the tribulation (Matt.24:29-31), 
that he comes at the "last trump", NOT at a trump which is followed by 7 
other trumpets! (I Cor 15:52)  Scripture clearly states that our 
"redemption", the redemption (APOLUTROSIS) of our bodies (Rom.8:23) does not 
happen until after the events described in Luke 21 up to verse 27. Verse 28 
reads, "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift 
up your heads; for your redemption (APOLUTROSIS) draweth nigh."

One may reject many unscriptural "dispensational propositions" but retain 
truths of scripture which dispensational teachers have taught!  i.e. 
Scripture very clearly teaches that Christ will reign for a thousand years, 
and that Satan will be bound for a thousand years. (Revelation 20)  
Scripture also teaches that after the thousand years the wicked dead will be 
raised, brought before the great white throne to be judged by Christ and 
then cast alive into the lake of Fire. (Rev.20)

So I believe that to seriously consider the possibility that Jesus, may have 
actually returned in A.D. 70 is worse than believing the most far fetched 
fairy tale! it will also distract us from being obedient to the commands of 
our Saviour to watch, not to sleep as those who sleep in the night or are 
drunken etc! Rather, I believe we need to face the facts of scripture that 
things are going to continue to get worse and worse and that we are going to 
be called upon to go through times of horrific trouble, persecution and even 
martyrdom for the name of Christ. If we are not aware of the facts of 
scripture, if we accept the delusions of man's theories (i.e. all true 
Christians will be raptured out before the big troubles start! as in Hal 
Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth" and Tim LaHaye's and Jerry Jenkins' 
"Left Behind Series") then we will be in for major disillusionment and 
despair when our presumed "pre-trib. rapture" fails to materialize before 
the Man of Sin comes on the scene and we are faced with the choice to accept 
the Mark or be denied the opportunity to buy or sell any longer!

Scripture very clearly teaches that believers can expect no deliverance or 
rest from trouble UNTIL the Lord Jesus  shall be revealed from heaven with 
his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not 
God and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ... II 
Thessalonians 1:7,8

II Thessalonians also assures us that that day will not come except there be 
a falling away first, and that man of Sin be revealed. (This is the 
identical word for the "revelation" of Jesus Christ!)  In both cases it 
means to be fully manifested for who one really is! (No more "under cover" 
operations here, as the Man of Sin will carry out throughout the great 
tribulation!) No, when he is revealed, his "cover" will be blown and he will 
be known as the liar and deceiver which he always was and will be consumed 
with the Spirit of the Lord's mouth and destroyed with the brightness of His 
coming!  (II Thess.2:3-9)

I would suggest that rather than spend our time wondering what scripture 
says to the "possibility of Christ's return in the first century" that we 
invest our time more profitably in searching the scriptures more carefully 
relative to prophecies yet unfulfilled so that we might be prepared for the 
portions of history (HIS STORY) which have yet to be unfolded!

Your brother in Christ,

Protect your PC - get VirusScan Online

House Church Talk is sponsored by the House Church Network.

House Church Talk has been renamed. These discussions, via the web, now occur at the Radically Christian Cafe.