House Church Talk - Re: House Church Talk Digest, Vol 3, Issue 44
Judy Cogan
Judy.Cogan at BCHill.Net
Thu Feb 12 13:20:46 EST 2004
Dear Bruce:
With re:2nd Thess.1:8 " In flaming fire taking vengence on them that
know not God, and that obey not
the gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ." What you are saying does not make
sense. The Saints have
God's Spirit living within them so how could they not know God? As a
child of God we are to obey the
Gospel so how do you get out of that no rapture!
Sincerly Judy
>>> House Church Talk -request at housechurch.org 2/11/2004 11:00:21 AM >>>
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Re: Was baptisms Now dispensations/ Preterism (jim
pierceall)
2. Re: What is it? (flash)
3. Preterism/Fairy Tale (flash)
4. Re: What is it? (David Anderson)
5. Re: What is it? (Phillip Cohen)
6. GM and Bill Gates (terra king)
7. Re: Re: Was baptisms Now dispensations/ Preterism (Dan Beaty)
8. RE: Re: Was baptisms Now dispensations/ Preterism (R.L. Johnson)
9. Re: Re: Was baptisms Now dispensations/ Preterism (jim
pierceall)
10. Re: Re: Was baptisms Now dispensations/ Preterism (darlene)
11. RE: Re: Was baptisms Now dispensations/ Preterism (R.L. Johnson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:32:22 -0600
From: "jim pierceall" <jpierceall at brtc.net>
Subject: Re: House Church Talk - Re: Was baptisms Now dispensations/ Preterism
To: "House Church Talk" <House Church Talk at housechurch.org>
Message-ID: <008a01c3effb$ebcaebc0$786a21d0 at yourpa86z1i3g7>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
It would certainly be understandable to see "completions" of many of
Jesus
foretellings, w/ the destruction of the physical Temple of 70AD... but
also
comes the human tendency, a personal propensity to look no further and
"camp" at a firm conclusion...
Did ya ever wonder if our Lord spoke in such a fashion, that every
generation, since that first, might also see many of these matters
during
their lifetimes? I mean, if we had been a part of the generation that
saw
an anti-christ papacy rise to dominate physical political/religious
power,
wouldn't we have been certain, this is what Jesus was telling us to
look
for? What of those that saw the sudden rise of Nero?... or...
Diocleties/Constantine? What of Charlemagne? Of Napoleon? And surely
we
have not looked past that time period, where Hitler offered his
ruthless
"final solution"? Surely if we had seen his victims tattooed w/
numbers,
(Jew and Christian) while engaging the whole world to war - would we
have
NOT said - Jesus will return post immediately! Always the world's
anti-christ arising and a faithful remnant Looking to Jesus ... I
believe
that is the history recorded...
To the One that is Truth - all truth is held simultaneous in the I
AM...
and every generation given eyes to see and ears to discern, shall see
the
merit and application of His superior insight and wisdom... With this
blessed hope, our eyes and ears shall be trained on Him... as we too
echo
from deep within our hearts... Come Lord Jesus! \O/
As for me, I hold fewer "final conclusions" than what I might had
first
supposed... All of my shakable shall be shaken, until such time, at
what is
unshakable - He shall remain...
Yet in my Conclusion: I do not completely comprehend, neither can I
rightfully
defend, nor prove... BUT I am increasingly confident...
"As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
And at <the> last, He will take His stand on the earth.
"Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
Whom I myself shall behold,
And whom my eyes will see and not another.
My, <how my> heart yearns within me!
JimP - kentucky
These would be fanciful words, and rightfully worthy of ridicule, had
they
not been spoken longtime before me by Job 19: 25-27
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:50:50 -0600
From: flash <flash at mbz.org>
Subject: House Church Talk - Re: What is it?
To: House Church Talk at housechurch.org
Message-ID: <008801c3effe$75dc9d70$0b01a8c0 at Workgroup>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> John 16:16-20
>
> 16 "In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a
little while
> you will see me."
>
> 17 Some of his disciples said to one another, "What does he mean by
saying,
> 'In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little
while
> you will see me,' and 'Because I am going to the Father'?" 18 They
kept
> asking, "What does he mean by 'a little while'? We don't understand
what he
> is saying."
>
> 19 Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this, so he said to
them,
> "Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, 'In a little
while you
> will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me'?
> NIV
Jim P - do not go too fast past these words.
If it is/was true that "In a little while..." they did not see Jesus,
then it certainly must be
also true that "after a little while you will see me" means the same -
a little while. What is
a little while? greater than 2000 years? Or, is a little while more
like "this generation"
type meaning...
Dan ChicagoArea
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:02:23 -0600
From: flash <flash at mbz.org>
Subject: House Church Talk - Preterism/Fairy Tale
To: House Church Talk at housechurch.org
Message-ID: <002301c3f009$5ca2f060$0b01a8c0 at Workgroup>
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> Dear brother, it seems to me like you are saying two contradictory
things
> within a few sentences! You say, "Don't believe history" and then you
speak
> about the dates and details of the Roman occupation and destruction
of
> Jerusalem! Where do you get your details, dates etc, if not from
"secular"
> historians??? Why do you say there is no believeable record of
what
> happened? What of historians of the period such as Josephus?
We must try to keep in mind that we are not fighting here on any issue.
We are in a manner
experimenting, and I am enjoying the additions you are putting into
this, Bruce - thank you.
My faith is not built on history:
Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of
God.
Therefore I say don't believe history. History on the other hand does
present things some have
written. Not all of history is written, not all of history is factual,
it remains history.
The Word of God on the other hand is the Word of God - we do not toy
with it, we do not change
it, we come to know all of God by the Word of God. We constantly look
for verification of
history and in speaking of what is written history, we continue to look
for verification - not
so with the Bible. Josephus is a good historian of the period of AD70
time period. I have not
read Josephus, and there are others. Historys corroborate the history
of the Bible. Historys
conflict. Actually now, think with me about Jesus appearing as we
expect at AD70. That
appearing will be to take his own and others who were there - did
they/will they see Jesus? or
is this appearing for the redeemed and thus something that will not be
recorded in history.
Perhaps this enters into this AD70 time?
What do we call the time after Jesus' appearing - kingdom? Is there
any character of this time
that speaks to kingdom?
> You wrote:"So, if we live with this hope that Jesus will come - fine,
but
> realistically, we probably won't see it. So, we can live with that.
Or, what
> would it be if we lived as if Jesus did come at/near AD70? What does
the
> Bible expose about that type of thing? Is there mind given to live
with
> today regarding that? This is not a rhetorical question for me, it is
a
> question that perhaps we can seek for a modicum of an answer
together? "
>
> Dear brother, the revelation of the Lord Jesus is the major event
toward
> which all of human history has been moving! It is an event which
John
> prophesied when he wrote the Revelation in A.D.94! It is an event
which
> EVERY EYE shall see! (Rev.1:7) So if it had already occurred there
would be
> more eye witnesses to that one event than of any other event of
history!
> Such an event does not just slip by unnoticed and unrecorded by
anybody!!!
> So to even hypothesize about the coming of the Lord Jesus in A.D. 70
is
> utterly unrealistic! It not only denies the facts of recorded
history, but
> the facts of recorded prophecy (The Revelation)!
Did we get it wrong? Could we get it wrong? Did the leaders of Israel
get Isaiah wrong?
Never say never. I hold nothing more secure than the Bible. Ideas,
theology, etc are all
suspect and are held/argued and tentatively held. That is all I am
doing here - I hope you
understand.
> You wrote:"3)This question about kingdom assumes only traditional
> dispensations as the influence for all thought. Think with me for the
sake
> of dialog - what kind of questions would you ask about this? Does
the
> kingdom come immediately after Jesus' appearance? Is there Bible
reasons to
> say this is not the kingdom? Other questions?"
>
> Dan, many of us have rejected the dispensational scheme of things
simply
> because there are no scriptural statements to provide any sort of
scriptural
> fact to demonstrate (1) a 7 year tribulation, (2)a pre-tribulation
rapture ,
> (3)the "imminency doctrine" of the Lord's return, (4)that the Lord
will come
> in the clouds, catch believers up to meet him in the clouds and then
take a
> "u-turn" and return to heaven! BUT, the rejection of "traditional
> dispensationalism" does not mean rejecting the scriptures and clearly
stated
> facts and prophecies of scripture! Rather statements of the very
words of
> scripture teach that the Lord comes AFTER the tribulation
(Matt.24:29-31),
> that he comes at the "last trump", NOT at a trump which is followed
by 7
> other trumpets! (I Cor 15:52) Scripture clearly states that our
> "redemption", the redemption (APOLUTROSIS) of our bodies (Rom.8:23)
does not
> happen until after the events described in Luke 21 up to verse 27.
Verse 28
> reads, "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up,
and lift
> up your heads; for your redemption (APOLUTROSIS) draweth nigh."
>
> One may reject many unscriptural "dispensational propositions" but
retain
> truths of scripture which dispensational teachers have taught! i.e.
> Scripture very clearly teaches that Christ will reign for a thousand
years,
> and that Satan will be bound for a thousand years. (Revelation 20)
> Scripture also teaches that after the thousand years the wicked dead
will be
> raised, brought before the great white throne to be judged by Christ
and
> then cast alive into the lake of Fire. (Rev.20)
>
> So I believe that to seriously consider the possibility that Jesus,
may have
> actually returned in A.D. 70 is worse than believing the most far
fetched
> fairy tale! it will also distract us from being obedient to the
commands of
> our Saviour to watch, not to sleep as those who sleep in the night or
are
> drunken etc! Rather, I believe we need to face the facts of scripture
that
> things are going to continue to get worse and worse and that we are
going to
> be called upon to go through times of horrific trouble, persecution
and even
> martyrdom for the name of Christ. If we are not aware of the facts
of
> scripture, if we accept the delusions of man's theories (i.e. all
true
> Christians will be raptured out before the big troubles start! as in
Hal
> Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth" and Tim LaHaye's and Jerry
Jenkins'
> "Left Behind Series") then we will be in for major disillusionment
and
> despair when our presumed "pre-trib. rapture" fails to materialize
before
> the Man of Sin comes on the scene and we are faced with the choice to
accept
> the Mark or be denied the opportunity to buy or sell any longer!
>
> Scripture very clearly teaches that believers can expect no
deliverance or
> rest from trouble UNTIL the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven
with
> his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know
not
> God and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ... II
> Thessalonians 1:7,8
>
> II Thessalonians also assures us that that day will not come except
there be
> a falling away first, and that man of Sin be revealed. (This is the
> identical word for the "revelation" of Jesus Christ!) In both cases
it
> means to be fully manifested for who one really is! (No more "under
cover"
> operations here, as the Man of Sin will carry out throughout the
great
> tribulation!) No, when he is revealed, his "cover" will be blown and
he will
> be known as the liar and deceiver which he always was and will be
consumed
> with the Spirit of the Lord's mouth and destroyed with the brightness
of His
> coming! (II Thess.2:3-9)
>
> I would suggest that rather than spend our time wondering what
scripture
> says to the "possibility of Christ's return in the first century"
that we
> invest our time more profitably in searching the scriptures more
carefully
> relative to prophecies yet unfulfilled so that we might be prepared
for the
> portions of history (HIS STORY) which have yet to be unfolded!
>
> Your brother in Christ,
> Bruce
Bruce, my mind gets made up from time to time as it appears yours has
been made up on this
issue. On this issue, my mind is not made up, therefore I entertain
the realities of scripture
regarding the things others present. I am on the outside of these
"partial preterist"
presentations willing to learn. I don't think I will be able to make
up my mind, but I do want
to be open to the work of God in these matters in my life - I do not
want to make up my mind.
Jesus appears? - I am waiting and live accorging to the Bible. Jesus
has appeared? - I live
according to the Bible. No difference in how we live, really.
Dan ChicagoArea
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:14:30 -0500
From: David Anderson <david at housechurch.org>
Subject: Re: House Church Talk - What is it?
To: "House Church Talk" <House Church Talk at housechurch.org>
Message-ID: <E1AqfDC-0000bT-00 at turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>The Lord has a wonderful Present for us.
>
>Can anyone tell us what it is?
>
>Running to Him,
>Phillip & Mary Cohen
Good to see you again, brother.
Thanks to those who have introduced other themes while we're slowly and
politely working through some prophetic things.
Thanks to Jesus for ALL the presents. We're Rich!
David Anderson
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:22:19 -0600
From: Phillip Cohen <spiritfilledhome at juno.com>
Subject: Re: House Church Talk - What is it?
To: House Church Talk at housechurch.org
Message-ID: <20040210.172220.2336.1.spiritfilledhome at juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
The Present is The Present.
Forgive the past, leave it behind. Don't worry about the future. Be
faithful and enjoy the present.
That's the best Present we can experience in Christ and each other.
That's the best Present we can give to others.
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:14:30 -0500 David Anderson
<david at housechurch.org>
writes:
> >The Lord has a wonderful Present for us.
> >
> >Can anyone tell us what it is?
> >
> >Running to Him,
> >Phillip & Mary Cohen
>
> Good to see you again, brother.
>
> Thanks to those who have introduced other themes while we're slowly
> and
> politely working through some prophetic things.
>
> Thanks to Jesus for ALL the presents. We're Rich!
>
> David Anderson
>
>
> --- Info and subscription management at
> https://housechurch.org/talk ---
>
>
Running to Him,
Phillip & Mary Cohen
spiritfilledhome at juno.com
God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:25:52 -0500
From: "terra king" <terra_king1 at lycos.com>
Subject: House Church Talk - GM and Bill Gates
To: House Church Talk at housechurch.org
Message-ID: <PPJMEIKFOILMEKAA at mailcity.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I thought some of you might find this amusing! Please, geeks, don't
take it too seriously.
For all of us who feel only the deepest love and affection for the way
computers have enhanced our lives, read on. At a recent computer expo
(COMDEX), Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the
auto industry and stated, "If GM had kept up with technology like the
computer industry has, we would all be driving $25.00 cars that got
1,000 miles to the gallon".
In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release
stating: If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be
driving cars with the following characteristics (and I just love this)
1. For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash twice a day.
2. Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to
buy a new car.
3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You
would have to pull over to the side of the road, close all of the
windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you
could continue. For some reason you would simply accept this.
4. Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause
your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would
have to reinstall the engine.
5. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was
reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive - but would run
on only five percent of the roads.
6. The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would all
be replaced by a single "This Car Has Performed An Illegal Operation"
warning light.
7. The airbag system would ask "Are you sure?" before deploying.
8. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out
and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door
handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.
9. Every time a new car was introduced car buyers would have to learn
how to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate
in the same manner as the old car.
10. You'd have to press the "Start" button to turn the engine off.
____________________________________________________________
Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:34:53 -0800
From: "Dan Beaty" <dlbeaty at copper.net>
Subject: Re: House Church Talk - Re: Was baptisms Now dispensations/ Preterism
To: "House Church Talk" <House Church Talk at housechurch.org>
Message-ID: <000f01c3f069$299886c0$e3db23c7 at dbeaty>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Jim and others,
I have been intrigued by this subject for some time now. For myself, I
hold
no firm conclusions on the entire chapter 24 of Mat thew, but parts of
it do
seem to have been fulfilled long ago. I hope to hear and learn more
along
these lines, but for now I can truly identify with Jim P's comments:
>
> As for me, I hold fewer "final conclusions" than what I might had
first
> supposed... All of my shakable shall be shaken, until such time, at
what
is
> unshakable - He shall remain...
One thing for certain: The manner in which the prophecies of the Bible
are
fulfilled WILL be known by all in due time! Those who love and obey Him
will
be in a much better place than perhaps even those who understood the
mysteries correctly, but were lacking in such love!
While I agree with you Jim that history has repeated itself many
times,
there are indications that the "closed" portions of the Book are
becoming
more open to each generation. These conversations on the internet are
playing a part in getting us to open our minds to possibilities which
before
we could not even allow.
If we can believe that evil men will wax worse and worse in the latter
days,
perhaps we can also believe and look for the time when the "knowledge
of the
glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea!"
When I
consider that bright future He has planned, my lack of detailed
knowledge
concerning it does not hinder. I just want that vision to flood my
heart,
mind and body, giving hope, zeal and a greater adoration for my Lord!
Dan Beaty
Columbus, Ohio
www.livingtruth.com
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:14:11 -0500
From: "R.L. Johnson" <rjohnson at wise.k12.va.us>
Subject: RE: House Church Talk - Re: Was baptisms Now dispensations/ Preterism
To: "House Church Talk" <House Church Talk at housechurch.org>
Message-ID: <NHBBIHDLMDEFMHCAKCFMKEMOCBAA.rjohnson at wise.k12.va.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
If you want an interesting viewpoint on Mat 24 and other such verses
I
suggest two possibilities.
A. Ask a non Christian who is not familiar with dispensation theology
to
read the verses in question.
or
B. Go the a Christian who is being persecuted in a 3rd world country
and
ask their opinion on these issues.
I have done both and I was amazed at the answers.
Rick
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:26:15 -0600
From: "jim pierceall" <jpierceall at brtc.net>
Subject: Re: House Church Talk - Re: Was baptisms Now dispensations/ Preterism
To: "House Church Talk" <House Church Talk at housechurch.org>
Message-ID: <002501c3f0a2$a31ef8b0$aa6a21d0 at yourpa86z1i3g7>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Rick - Interesting thought... Would you care to elaborate?
Thanks JimP - kentucky
Rick wrote:
> If you want an interesting viewpoint on Mat 24 and other such verses
I
> suggest two possibilities.
>
> A. Ask a non Christian who is not familiar with dispensation
theology to
> read the verses in question.
>
> or
>
> B. Go the a Christian who is being persecuted in a 3rd world country
and
> ask their opinion on these issues.
>
> I have done both and I was amazed at the answers.
>
> Rick
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:28:32 -0500
From: darlene <ddowling254385MI at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: House Church Talk - Re: Was baptisms Now dispensations/ Preterism
To: House Church Talk <House Church Talk at housechurch.org>
Message-ID: <402A3C10.5040902 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
http://www.wingtv.net
http://www.savemyson.org
http://www.roselear.net
http://autarchic.tripod.com
David Anderson wrote:
>>Brother, where did you learn that all of scripture was written before
A.D.
>>70?
>>Relative to events and the dates of the writing of the various
epistles
>>which have been put in the margins of my Bible (The Newberry
Reference Bible
>>KJV), I found the following dates of writing from A.D.67 onward:
>>A.D.67 -the final events of Acts 28,
>>A.D.68 -Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Hebrews
>>A.D.69 - I Timothy, Titus
>>A.D.70 -II Timothy, II Peter, Jude
>>A.D. 94 - I, II and III John and the Revelation
>>I'm sure that if Jesus had returned in A.D. 70, John surely would
have said
>>something about it!
>>
>>
>
> HI all,
>
>I would be interested in seeing what dates other Study Bibles put on
>these NT books. Anyone?
>
>Bruce, I have read that Irenaeus is the ONLY source for the late
dating
>of Revelation. Other "sources" just quote him. John, in Rev, speaks of
>Nero Caesar as still on the throne. He died in June 68. This,
according
>to a commentary by David Chilton. Another book lists several pages of
>scholarly works, preferring the early dates.
>
>I'll look into this further - I thought I once read a compelling case
>that the "coming of the Lord" could mean coming in judgment via
secondary
>means, that is, not in person.
>
> God bless you all!
>
> David Anderson
>
>
> --- Info and subscription management at
https://housechurch.org/talk ---
>
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:02:57 -0500
From: "R.L. Johnson" <rjohnson at wise.k12.va.us>
Subject: RE: House Church Talk - Re: Was baptisms Now dispensations/ Preterism
To: "House Church Talk" <House Church Talk at housechurch.org>
Message-ID: <NHBBIHDLMDEFMHCAKCFMKENBCBAA.rjohnson at wise.k12.va.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I have had several people who are totally unfamiliar with the
scriptures
read Mat thew 24, 2 Thes 2 and several chapters in Daniel. Every one
of
then read the scriptures and said they felt the church would go through
the
"tribulation".
In regards to those who live in current persecuted
countries............
I have traveled on the eastern European countries and the middle east,
I
have never met a Christian who believed in dispensation theology or
the
pretrib rapture. However, I have met several who have traveled to the
west
to attend Seminary (cemetery) and they were forced to amend their
beliefs to
pass the classes.
All in all, I believe dispensation theology is a western church belief
system.
Not sure this makes any sense to the rest of you.
Just my nickels worth.
RJ
-----Original Message-----
From: House Church Talk -bounces at housechurch.org
[mailto:House Church Talk -bounces at housechurch.org]On Behalf Of jim pierceall
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 8:26 AM
To: House Church Talk
Subject: Re: House Church Talk - Re: Was baptisms Now dispensations/ Preterism
Hi Rick - Interesting thought... Would you care to elaborate?
Thanks JimP - kentucky
Rick wrote:
> If you want an interesting viewpoint on Mat 24 and other such verses
I
> suggest two possibilities.
>
> A. Ask a non Christian who is not familiar with dispensation
theology to
> read the verses in question.
>
> or
>
> B. Go the a Christian who is being persecuted in a 3rd world country
and
> ask their opinion on these issues.
>
> I have done both and I was amazed at the answers.
>
> Rick
--- Info and subscription management at https://housechurch.org/talk
---
------------------------------
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