House Church Talk - cessation of spiritual gifts

[Bruce Woodford]

Dear brother Ross,

You claim that you have never seen any evidence of spiritual gifts being 
exercised!  Could I ask you how you have gotten along in your Christian life 
without any contemporaries of yours who were evangelists to preach the 
gospel to you, pastors to shepherd you, ministers/servants to minister 
to/serve you, givers to give generously to you, rulers to set a godly 
example before you, those with compassion to have mercy upon you, exhorters 
to come along side you to encourage you when the going got rough?  How have 
you ever made it without any such contemporaries with knowledge to impart to 
you when you did not know, with discernment that you did not possess, with 
faith and confidence in God to do what you could not even dream?

You may not have recognized them, but I have no doubt that our faithful God 
has placed many such gifted people around you and that you have been richly 
blessed by the exercise of these and many other spiritual gifts!  I aslo 
have no doubt that others have been richly blessed as a result of the 
exercise of such gifts that He has given to you!

Thank you for responding again to my questions. However, I'm sorry that they 
have not been satisfactory scripturally.

In response to my first question:"Dear brother in what passages of scripture 
did Paul say:  -that ALL the spiritual gifts of Rom.12, I Cor 12 and Eph.4 
WOULD PASS AWAY?  -that any of them DID pass away?" ...you wrote:"To prove 
that they passed away during Paul's lifetime is not a necessity. But there 
must be a time period in which we find none of these ministry gifts, as well 
as, love, faith and hope remaining. Since faith and hope are realized at the 
return of Christ, this period must exist between the coming of the "perfect" 
and the return of Christ. Simple and Biblical!

Dear brother, this line of reasoning is neither simple nor Biblical!!!
(1) You claimed in a recent post :"It is safe to assume that with the 
completion of his (Paul's) apostolic ministry, the "perfect" had come and 
the unity of the faith established."  Now you seem to be calling that "safe 
assumption" into question by saying,"To prove that they (the gifts that 
would cease when "the perfect" had come) passed away during Paul's lifetime 
is not a necessity. " !!!
(2) You have assumed that faith and hope are realized at the return of 
Christ, but scripture never says such a thing!  There are many promises of 
God and prophecies to be fulfilled which will not all  be fulfilled at the 
return of Christ!!!  So how can faith and hope be fully realized then???
(3) I Cor 13:9-13 teaches us that knowing in part and prophesying in part 
are true at the very same time as "seeing through a glass darkly and the 
"now" of the abiding of faith, hope and love.  Also, when knowing in part 
and prophesying in part would be finished, we would see face to face and 
that Paul would know even as he was known. You have not shown any Biblical 
proof that such conditions are yet or will be true prior to the completion 
of the Body of Christ just prior to the coming of the Lord!

Brother Ross, you continued addressing me as follows:"You have a problem 
with Paul not taking the time to elaborate each gift. Well, many Bible 
teachers see these three as representing the rest. There is a name for this 
figure of speech and I can't remember it off hand. I'll have to look it up 
in Keach's "Preaching from the Types and Metaphors of the Bible" or 
Bullinger's "Figures of Speech in the Bible" sometime. Anyway, look at 1Cor 
12:4-10 and note that Paul divides the various manifestations of the 
"spirituals" into: 1. diversities of gifts (verse 4). 2. diversities of 
ministrations (verse 5). 3. diversities of workings (verse 6). How many is 
that? Note all those "another"s! All except two are the greek word 
transliterated "allos" which means "another of the same kind" and the 
exceptions are "heteros" which means "another of a different kind." So we 
have: Group A.: the word of wisdom and another (of the same kind) the word 
of knowledge Group B.: and another (of a different kind) faith and another 
(of the same kind) gifts of healings and another (of the same kind) the 
working of miracles and another (of the same kind) prophecy and another (of 
the same kind) discerning of spirits Group C.: and another (of a different 
kind) divers kinds of tongues and another (of the same kind) the 
interpretation of tongues We can see that the two use of heteros serves to 
break it up into three groups. Now jump to 1Cor 13:8 1 Corinthians 13:8 KJV 
(8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies(Group B), they 
shall fail; whether there be tongues(Group C), they shall cease; whether 
there be knowledge(Group A), it shall vanish away. Do I have a case?

No brother you don't! (At least not in my opinion.) I say this for a number 
of reasons:
(1) First, my problem is NOT WITH PAUL failing to elaborate all the gifts! 
He did an excellent job of that in Romans 12, I Cor 12 and Ephesians 4!  My 
objection is is with dispensationalists like yourself which make 
unsubstantiated claims about THE TIMING OF THE CESSATION OF GIFTS AND OF THE 
ALL INCLUSIVE NATURE OF THE CESSATION OF "SPIRITUALS"which Paul never did!
(2) Although groups of gifts may be "of the same kind",  wisdom is other 
than knowledge;  faith, gifts of healing,  working of miracles, and 
discerning of spirits are other than prophecy;  and tongues are other than 
interpretation of tongues.  I Cor.13:8 says, "whether there be prophecies, 
they shall fail, whether there be tongues they shall cease; whether there be 
knowledge, it shall vanish away."  It does NOT say, "Whether there be 
prophecies they AND ALL OTHER GIFTS OF THE SAME KIND shall fail, whether 
there be tongues they AND ALL OTHER GIFTS OF THE SAME KIND shall cease, 
whether there be knowledge, it AND ALL OTHER GIFTS OF THE SAME KIND shall 
vanish away."
(3) You have claimed that the 3 represent the 19, but you have only shown a 
relationship "of the same kind" of the 3 to 6 others! You have not shown how 
prophecies, knowledge and tongues "represent"  apostles, evangelists, 
pastors, teachers (Ephesians 4), ministry, teaching, exhortation, giving, 
ruling, showing mercy (Romans 12). You have not even shown such a 
relationship with all the gifts mentioned in I Cor 12! What about apostles, 
teachers, helps, governments???

In response to my second question:"What is it in this passage (I Cor.13) 
that identifies, to  your mind, the coming of the Lord? ",,,you responded:" 
Nothing in 1Cor 13 has to do with the coming of the Lord! I do not identify 
anything in 1Cor 13 with the coming of the Lord. Nothing in the context 
suggests such."

Alright, I see that in our consideration of I Cor 13 and our comments 
relative to that chapter, I'd assumed wrongly that you somehow saw the 
return of Christ in that chapter. So let me ask you again, where IN 
SCRIPTURE and for what reasons do you believe that faith and hope are fully 
realized at the return of Christ?

Thirdly, in response to my comment:"You claim that faith remains until the 
coming of the Lord, but you did  not respond to the observation that faith 
is one of the 19 gifts of the  spirit which you say passed away in the first 
century!"...you responded: "...I submit to you that the faith spoken as 
being one of the "spirituals" is not the same as our saving faith."

Dear brother,  I had not even suggested that "saving faith" was even 
referred to in I Cor 13!  Are you inferring that?

(4)I had written:"That event (the coming of "that which is perfect") marks  
the timing of 3 things: (1) the doing away with that which is in part 
(knowledge and prophecy), (2) the end of our seeing through a glass darkly 
and the beginning of our seeing "face to face",  (3) Paul's knowing as he 
was known.  Please explain for us how and why you have concluded that all 
four of these  things have already happened and when (at what point in 
history) you think  they happened."

You responded:"As already explained, there is required a period of time 
after the perfect has come and thus the passing away of the gifts as Paul 
plainly states and lasting until for as long as at least faith and hope 
does. It is easy to see that the end point is the return of Christ. It 
leaves us with determining what the perfect is. The perfect is denoted as 
that which is in contrast to the imperfect gifts. The perfect resolves 
immaturity, obscurity (from dark glass to seeing face to face, i.e., seeing 
clearly), lack of knowledge as Paul states using a colloquialism: "now I 
know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known" and so these 
are all plainly related to the action of the "perfect." The whole context is 
of edification in the Body, its unity, and bringing the Body to a state of 
maturity. While the "perfect" in this passage is rather vague, Paul is more 
explicit in Ephesians where we have the same context of edification and 
establishing the Body and there the "perfect" is explicitly identified as 
the new man having become "a perfect man." As far as our personal 
experience, we should have an unobscured (seeing as if face to face/ direct) 
and full knowledge (know as he was known) understanding of the importance of 
love, faith, and hope with respect to the edification of the Body. The 
coming of the "perfect" or established state of the divine institution 
provides the environment where that potential can be realized for the 
individual. It is like the institution of an army whereby when it is finally 
established, it becomes an environment where soldiers can learn discipline 
and achieve rank. Before such an army/corporate entity/institution is 
created and established, it is not possible for an individual to achieve 
rank/maturity in something that does not exist."

In this answer, brother Ross, you still have not answered at what point in 
history those four events happened!  You have not explained whose face would 
be seen "face to face" rather than through a glass darkly!  Nor have you 
explained how Paul was known during his life on earth and how at the time of 
the coming of "the perfect" he would know in the very same way!!  Nor did 
you even claim that seeing "face to face" is yet your own personal 
experience!  You simply said, "We SHOULD HAVE  an unobscured (seeing as if 
face to face/ direct) and full knowledge (know as he was known) 
understanding of the importance of love, faith, and hope with respect to the 
edification of the Body."!!!

Brother Ross, Paul did NOT say that when the perfect was come we "should" or 
"ought to" see face to face! He states it as an assured fact!  So if it is 
not an assured fact, we can be sure that "the perfect:" has not yet come!   
It is obvious by your answer that it certainly is not an assured fact even 
in your own experience, so please do not expect us to believe your premise 
that the perfect has already come and so gifts are no longer necessary!

Fifthly, I had asked:""Has that which is perfect  (maturity in the Body of 
Christ) come or has it not?"

Your response was as follows:"The "perfect" has come! Its providing for us 
the real possibility to grow up spiritually. "

Dear Ross, this answer is just as foolish as would be the following answer 
to the question: "Is this two year old child mature?"........"Certainly this 
child is mature! It has been provided the very real possibility to grow up 
physically."

Dear brother, maturity and the possibility to grow up into maturity are two 
vastly different matters!!!

Finally, I'd written:"A body may be "established" long before it is mature! 
An immature body has all of it's members! A newborn infant has all of it's 
members but is a long  way from maturity! But the body of Christ does not 
even have all of it's  members yet! So the time when all the members are 
mature has certainly NOT  arrived yet!"

You responded:"Lets not get tripped up on semantics, if you don't like 
"establish" think of a different one, you know what I am trying to say. 
Again, the perfection of the institution is not the same as that of the 
individual members. The perfection of the individual members is now possible 
(without gifts) because the corporate entity has matured through Paul and 
company's ministry."

Dear Ross, semantics or the use of words is crucial in understanding God's 
Word!  He has chosen specific wordsto communicate specific truths!  I have 
noticed that when words of scripture do not suit you or do not express your 
doctrine, you do not mind choosing other words not found in scripture. The 
above paragraph is an example of such.  Scripture speaks of a "BODY" having 
"MEMBERS".  But you speak of members of an "institution"!  You speak of 
members of "A CORPORATE ENTITY"!     One can see that the Roman Catholic 
Church or the Coca Cola Company are "mature institutions" or "corporate 
entities".  Both may have very immature members or stockholders!   But such 
is NOT a possibility with either a human BODY nor with the BODY of Christ! 
It is an absolute impossibility for a human body to be perfect/mature when 
all of it's members are not yet perfect or not yet mature. In exactly the 
same way the Body of Christ will never be perfect/mature until all of it's 
members are also perfect/mature!

That is why Paul wrote Ephesians 4:11-13!   The work of the gifts of verse 
11 has the purpose in view of perfecting(maturing) the saints. As saints are 
maturing, they have the purpose in view of doing the work of ministry.  The 
work of ministry has in view the purpose of edifying the body of Christ.  
Then Paul declares that this entire process continues "TILL WE ALL  (all the 
faithful in Christ Jesus whom God has blessed with all spiritual blessings 
in heavenly places in Christ  Eph.1:1-3) come in the unity of the faith, and 
of the knowledge of the Son of  God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of 
the staure of the fullness of Christ."

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce

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