House Church Talk - cessation of spiritual gifts

[Ross J Purdy]

Hi Bruce and All,

I am gone for a week so I won't be answering anything until then. That's a
good thing since it will take that long to digest this ever lengthening
thread. Bruce, I want you to know I value your time and effort in bringing a
challenge to me even if it feels like a harder buffeting than it needs to
be.

You wrote:
> You claim that you have never seen any evidence of spiritual gifts being
> exercised! Could I ask you how you have gotten along in your Christian
life
> without any contemporaries of yours who were evangelists to preach the
> gospel to you, pastors to shepherd you, ministers/servants to minister
> to/serve you, givers to give generously to you, rulers to set a godly
> example before you, those with compassion to have mercy upon you,
exhorters
> to come along side you to encourage you when the going got rough? How have
> you ever made it without any such contemporaries with knowledge to impart
to
> you when you did not know, with discernment that you did not possess, with
> faith and confidence in God to do what you could not even dream?

Ross responds:

There are those that carry out these functions, just not by gifts. We have
been equipped otherwise.

Bruce wrote:
> Thank you for responding again to my questions. However, I'm sorry that
they
> have not been satisfactory scripturally.

Ross responds:

I give it my best shot!

Bruce wrote:
> In response to my first question:"Dear brother in what passages of
scripture
> did Paul say: -that ALL the spiritual gifts of Rom.12, I Cor 12 and Eph.4
> WOULD PASS AWAY? -that any of them DID pass away?" ...you wrote:"To prove
> that they passed away during Paul's lifetime is not a necessity. But there
> must be a time period in which we find none of these ministry gifts, as
well
> as, love, faith and hope remaining. Since faith and hope are realized at
the
> return of Christ, this period must exist between the coming of the
"perfect"
> and the return of Christ. Simple and Biblical!
>
> Dear brother, this line of reasoning is neither simple nor Biblical!!!

Ross responds:

Sure it is, its easy to understand and I sure didn't get it out of the
koran!

Bruce wrote:
> (1) You claimed in a recent post :"It is safe to assume that with the
> completion of his (Paul's) apostolic ministry, the "perfect" had come and
> the unity of the faith established." Now you seem to be calling that "safe
> assumption" into question by saying,"To prove that they (the gifts that
> would cease when "the perfect" had come) passed away during Paul's
lifetime
> is not a necessity. " !!!

Ross responds:

Safe assumptions are always open to question, but this is not fatal. The
point is that logically, Paul's reasoning demands a period of time after the
gifts have passed away and before Christ returns in which there will be a
more excellent way. Paul and his helpers were set (1Cor 12:18; Heb 2:3-4;
1Tim 2:7; Php 2:19-25) in the church by God to minister a ministry which
would accomplish God's purpose. A one time appointment with nothing to
indicate that the giftings continue beyond that generation of workers. The
apostles appointed helpers but WE have no instructions to continue passing
them on nor is there any examples today that I and many other saints can
see. Having recognized the fact that Paul had a ministry/commission to carry
out which was working towards a more excellent way, and that this ministry
must have been completed, we can safely assume(again) that we are in the
midst of the time when the more excellent way is the order of the day since
the Lord has not returned.

Bruce wrote:
> (2) You have assumed that faith and hope are realized at the return of
> Christ, but scripture never says such a thing! There are many promises of
> God and prophecies to be fulfilled which will not all be fulfilled at the
> return of Christ!!! So how can faith and hope be fully realized then???

Ross responds:

John will give us a number of passages which are explicit in that faith and
belief are realized with eternal life which many can remember without
listing them here. Also see 2Tim 1:12; 3:15; Ja 2:5; and:

1 Peter 1:9 WEB receiving the result of your faith, the salvation of your
souls.

Romans 8:22-25 WEB

(22) For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain
together until now.

(23) Not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first fruits of the
Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for adoption, the
redemption of our body.

(24) For we were saved in hope, but hope that is seen is not hope. For who
hopes for that which he sees?

(25) But if we hope for that which we don't see, we wait for it with
patience.

Acts 24:15 WEB

(15) having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that
there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Titus 2:13 WEB

(13) looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great
God and Savior, Jesus Christ;

It is perfectly clear to me that scripture supports it.

Bruce wrote:
> (3) I Cor 13:9-13 teaches us that knowing in part and prophesying in part
> are true at the very same time as "seeing through a glass darkly and the
> "now" of the abiding of faith, hope and love. Also, when knowing in part
> and prophesying in part would be finished, we would see face to face and
> that Paul would know even as he was known. You have not shown any Biblical
> proof that such conditions are yet or will be true prior to the completion
> of the Body of Christ just prior to the coming of the Lord!

Ross responds:

When the mature is reached the immature, the "seeing through a glass darkly"
is replaced by the fullness of Christ in the Body and seeing face to face.
We are now children of the light in which we can see clearly and face to
face. It is not the completion of the Body, as if it needed all members, to
which telios refers, but rather its being brought to a point of maturity,
being fully equipped and trained and ready to function without babysitters
and boundaries intended to safeguard the infantile. It is true that the
gifts and the three virtues were coexistent, but Paul's point is that there
was coming a point that the gifts would absolutely cease and the three
virtues would be that which abides. So it is clearly Biblical.

Bruce wrote:
> Brother Ross, you continued addressing me as follows:"You have a problem
> with Paul not taking the time to elaborate each gift. Well, many Bible
> teachers see these three as representing the rest. There is a name for
this
> figure of speech and I can't remember it off hand. I'll have to look it up
> in Keach's "Preaching from the Types and Metaphors of the Bible" or
> Bullinger's "Figures of Speech in the Bible" sometime. Anyway, look at
1Cor
> 12:4-10 and note that Paul divides the various manifestations of the
> "spirituals" into: 1. diversities of gifts (verse 4). 2. diversities of
> ministrations (verse 5). 3. diversities of workings (verse 6). How many is
> that? Note all those "another"s! All except two are the greek word
> transliterated "allos" which means "another of the same kind" and the
> exceptions are "heteros" which means "another of a different kind." So we
> have: Group A.: the word of wisdom and another (of the same kind) the word
> of knowledge Group B.: and another (of a different kind) faith and another
> (of the same kind) gifts of healings and another (of the same kind) the
> working of miracles and another (of the same kind) prophecy and another
(of
> the same kind) discerning of spirits Group C.: and another (of a different
> kind) divers kinds of tongues and another (of the same kind) the
> interpretation of tongues We can see that the two use of heteros serves to
> break it up into three groups. Now jump to 1Cor 13:8 1 Corinthians 13:8
KJV
> (8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies(Group B), they
> shall fail; whether there be tongues(Group C), they shall cease; whether
> there be knowledge(Group A), it shall vanish away. Do I have a case?
>
> No brother you don't! (At least not in my opinion.) I say this for a
number
> of reasons:
> (1) First, my problem is NOT WITH PAUL failing to elaborate all the gifts!
> He did an excellent job of that in Romans 12, I Cor 12 and Ephesians 4! My
> objection is is with dispensationalists like yourself which make
> unsubstantiated claims about THE TIMING OF THE CESSATION OF GIFTS AND OF
THE
> ALL INCLUSIVE NATURE OF THE CESSATION OF "SPIRITUALS"which Paul never did!

Ross responds:

Ah ha, the truth comes out! Well, most disp's allow for a few gifts, some
for all of Rom 12 and half of Eph 4. They are inconsistent and it must be
all or none to be consistent (right or wrong). I think Paul is perfectly
clear and the claim is fully substantiated. Perhaps it is just because I am
dispensational and you are not going to accept anything I say whether it is
Biblical or not.

Bruce wrote:
> (2) Although groups of gifts may be "of the same kind", wisdom is other
> than knowledge; faith, gifts of healing, working of miracles, and
> discerning of spirits are other than prophecy; and tongues are other than
> interpretation of tongues. I Cor.13:8 says, "whether there be prophecies,
> they shall fail, whether there be tongues they shall cease; whether there
be
> knowledge, it shall vanish away." It does NOT say, "Whether there be
> prophecies they AND ALL OTHER GIFTS OF THE SAME KIND shall fail, whether
> there be tongues they AND ALL OTHER GIFTS OF THE SAME KIND shall cease,
> whether there be knowledge, it AND ALL OTHER GIFTS OF THE SAME KIND shall
> vanish away."

> (3) You have claimed that the 3 represent the 19, but you have only shown
a
> relationship "of the same kind" of the 3 to 6 others!

Ross responds:

If the literary device is valid, then the 3 stand for all.

Bruce wrote:
>You have not shown how
> prophecies, knowledge and tongues "represent" apostles, evangelists,
> pastors, teachers (Ephesians 4),

Ross responds:

Eph 4 clearly limits itself to accomplishing a goal and we have already gone
over that ground I believe. If it limits itself, I don't need to prove it
from 1Cor.

Bruce wrote:
>ministry, teaching, exhortation, giving,
> ruling, showing mercy (Romans 12).

Ross responds:

Rom says they were measured out and are to be exercised in proportion, these
are limiting terms and qualifies the gifts. The fact that it includes
reference to their duration is derived from comparing this to the other
passages in 1Cor and Eph. even though it may not be all to which it refers.

Bruce wrote:
>You have not even shown such a
> relationship with all the gifts mentioned in I Cor 12! What about
apostles,
> teachers, helps, governments???

Ross responds:

The thing that links them all together is that they were once given for the
*edification* of the Body until it had reached its goal of maturity. Paul
tells us that we are fully equipped by completely other means now. I think
these gifts were obvious and impressive so as to not be mistaken for human
ability. To have to accept these gifts as being around today forces me to
accept that what are supposed to be gifts are no more impressive than what a
human can conjure up with a little practice. It smacks of human talent
rather than divine enablement. For some reason I am not impressed with a
gift we have to spend years chasing after to never find until someone puts
us on a pedestal and says you have the gift of... until we are convinced of
it as if it were true. It really is the emporer without his clothes. The
gifts were immediate and powerful and simple to validate. One did not have
to go to school to get it, spend years practicing to imitate it, or pull the
wool over eyes to convince of it or stack up unverifyable anecdote on top of
another on top of another as if that were supposed to count as genuine
proof.


Bruce wrote:
> In response to my second question:"What is it in this passage (I Cor.13)
> that identifies, to your mind, the coming of the Lord? ",,,you responded:"
> Nothing in 1Cor 13 has to do with the coming of the Lord! I do not
identify
> anything in 1Cor 13 with the coming of the Lord. Nothing in the context
> suggests such."
>
> Alright, I see that in our consideration of I Cor 13 and our comments
> relative to that chapter, I'd assumed wrongly that you somehow saw the
> return of Christ in that chapter. So let me ask you again, where IN
> SCRIPTURE and for what reasons do you believe that faith and hope are
fully
> realized at the return of Christ?

Ross responds:

See my response to your first point number two where references are given.

Bruce wrote:
> Thirdly, in response to my comment:"You claim that faith remains until the
> coming of the Lord, but you did not respond to the observation that faith
> is one of the 19 gifts of the spirit which you say passed away in the
first
> century!"...you responded: "...I submit to you that the faith spoken as
> being one of the "spirituals" is not the same as our saving faith."
>
> Dear brother, I had not even suggested that "saving faith" was even
> referred to in I Cor 13! Are you inferring that?

Ross responds:

I am making the distinction between the two by classifying one as human
faith in Christ (one of the three virtues) and the other as a divine measure
of faith which enables one to work miracles (the gift). I believed you were
inferring that they were both the same. If you were inferring nothing and
only looking to see what I meant, I hope this answers it (in spite of
whether you agree or not).

Bruce wrote:
> (4)I had written:"That event (the coming of "that which is perfect") marks
> the timing of 3 things: (1) the doing away with that which is in part
> (knowledge and prophecy), (2) the end of our seeing through a glass darkly
> and the beginning of our seeing "face to face", (3) Paul's knowing as he
> was known. Please explain for us how and why you have concluded that all
> four of these things have already happened and when (at what point in
> history) you think they happened."
>
> You responded:"As already explained, there is required a period of time
> after the perfect has come and thus the passing away of the gifts as Paul
> plainly states and lasting until for as long as at least faith and hope
> does. It is easy to see that the end point is the return of Christ. It
> leaves us with determining what the perfect is. The perfect is denoted as
> that which is in contrast to the imperfect gifts. The perfect resolves
> immaturity, obscurity (from dark glass to seeing face to face, i.e.,
seeing
> clearly), lack of knowledge as Paul states using a colloquialism: "now I
> know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known" and so these
> are all plainly related to the action of the "perfect." The whole context
is
> of edification in the Body, its unity, and bringing the Body to a state of
> maturity. While the "perfect" in this passage is rather vague, Paul is
more
> explicit in Ephesians where we have the same context of edification and
> establishing the Body and there the "perfect" is explicitly identified as
> the new man having become "a perfect man." As far as our personal
> experience, we should have an unobscured (seeing as if face to face/
direct)
> and full knowledge (know as he was known) understanding of the importance
of
> love, faith, and hope with respect to the edification of the Body. The
> coming of the "perfect" or established state of the divine institution
> provides the environment where that potential can be realized for the
> individual. It is like the institution of an army whereby when it is
finally
> established, it becomes an environment where soldiers can learn discipline
> and achieve rank. Before such an army/corporate entity/institution is
> created and established, it is not possible for an individual to achieve
> rank/maturity in something that does not exist."
>
> In this answer, brother Ross, you still have not answered at what point in
> history those four events happened! You have not explained whose face
would
> be seen "face to face" rather than through a glass darkly! Nor have you
> explained how Paul was known during his life on earth and how at the time
of
> the coming of "the perfect" he would know in the very same way!! Nor did
> you even claim that seeing "face to face" is yet your own personal
> experience! You simply said, "We SHOULD HAVE an unobscured (seeing as if
> face to face/ direct) and full knowledge (know as he was known)
> understanding of the importance of love, faith, and hope with respect to
the
> edification of the Body."!!!
>
> Brother Ross, Paul did NOT say that when the perfect was come we "should"
or
> "ought to" see face to face! He states it as an assured fact! So if it is
> not an assured fact, we can be sure that "the perfect:" has not yet come!
> It is obvious by your answer that it certainly is not an assured fact even
> in your own experience, so please do not expect us to believe your premise
> that the perfect has already come and so gifts are no longer necessary!

Ross responds:

It is an assured fact in my own experience so now I expect you to accept my
premise! ;)
I want to dig up some old notes on this and polish them up a bit for
presentation after my vacation. I hope the suspense doesn't drive anyone
crazy! ;)

Bruce wrote:
> Fifthly, I had asked:""Has that which is perfect (maturity in the Body of
> Christ) come or has it not?"
>
> Your response was as follows:"The "perfect" has come! Its providing for us
> the real possibility to grow up spiritually. "
>
> Dear Ross, this answer is just as foolish as would be the following answer
> to the question: "Is this two year old child mature?"........"Certainly
this
> child is mature! It has been provided the very real possibility to grow up
> physically."

Ross responds:

The problem comes first with the question which will never engender a wise
answer unless it is to rebuke the question. (I understand you are merely
trying to learn what my understanding is whether you agree or not.) The two
year old is not mature by definition. What a mature body provides is an
opportunity for immature cells in the body to develop and replace old ones.
That is what I am trying to explain. It is critical to differentiate and
distinguish between the whole and the part.

Bruce wrote:
> Dear brother, maturity and the possibility to grow up into maturity are
two
> vastly different matters!!!

Ross responds:

Indeed, as is the perspective of the corporate versus the individual.

Bruce wrote:
> Finally, I'd written:"A body may be "established" long before it is
mature!
> An immature body has all of it's members! A newborn infant has all of it's
> members but is a long way from maturity! But the body of Christ does not
> even have all of it's members yet! So the time when all the members are
> mature has certainly NOT arrived yet!"
>
> You responded:"Lets not get tripped up on semantics, if you don't like
> "establish" think of a different one, you know what I am trying to say.
> Again, the perfection of the institution is not the same as that of the
> individual members. The perfection of the individual members is now
possible
> (without gifts) because the corporate entity has matured through Paul and
> company's ministry."
>
> Dear Ross, semantics or the use of words is crucial in understanding God's
> Word! He has chosen specific wordsto communicate specific truths! I have
> noticed that when words of scripture do not suit you or do not express
your
> doctrine, you do not mind choosing other words not found in scripture.

Ross responds:

Well we could revert to the Greek but that will leave a lot of casualties of
no-understanding versus the misunderstanding we have now! It would be a step
in the wrong direction to be sure and thus we are back to semantics and
properly understanding those words of scripture versus accepting outdated or
even wrong translations of those words. I am willing to stick with the words
of scripture, but do not bind me to errors in translation and I won't bind
you to my translation if it causes a problem. We are bound by the actual
meanings of words and efforts towards that goal are valid and that is what I
am doing when I choose another word. I do look words up in the lexicons and
they do show up poor or wrong translations here and there.

Bruce wrote:
>The above paragraph is an example of such. Scripture speaks of a "BODY"
having
> "MEMBERS". But you speak of members of an "institution"! You speak of
> members of "A CORPORATE ENTITY"! One can see that the Roman Catholic
> Church or the Coca Cola Company are "mature institutions" or "corporate
> entities". Both may have very immature members or stockholders! But such
> is NOT a possibility with either a human BODY nor with the BODY of Christ!
> It is an absolute impossibility for a human body to be perfect/mature when
> all of it's members are not yet perfect or not yet mature. In exactly the
> same way the Body of Christ will never be perfect/mature until all of it's
> members are also perfect/mature!

Ross responds:

You are wrong here Brother. First, let us not confuse a human institution
with a divine institution. Institution is referring to the creation and work
of God which is applicable to a group of individuals who will have something
in common by that institution. Thus it has a corporate(singular entity/body
composed of many members/parts) nature which is not to be confused with
artificial corporations of human origin.

Second, the human body does indeed take about 18 years to grow to maturity.
Until then, the body requires extra help and resources for its care that it
can not provide for itself. The genes in our bodies are programmed to cause
the body to develop into an adult. Thus, adulthood is the completion of our
growth and development, or we could say physical maturity is the perfection
of the growing process. To reach the designated end is the goal, and to
attain the goal is the perfection of the process. We might also use the
example of the caterpillar becoming the butter-fly. That emergence from the
cocoon as a butterfly is the perfection for that worm! It has reached that
final form for which it was destined to become. It is the perfection of its
development. It speaks of the end of a process which finds it prepared to
continue on in the next stage. Perfection is not the end of the journey of
life, it is the end of the preparation for the journey of life.

The full-grown man is finished growing and he has matured and is of full-age
and of full-stature (Mat thew 6:27; Luke 2:52; 19:3; John 9:21,23). He has
matured into an adult and his development and growth are complete. The
full-grown man is physically equipped to do work and be competent in skills
that the partially grown child is not. The person who has come to adulthood
and has finished the processes of being educated and trained can accomplish
so much more than the child. Maturity is having come to a state of
completion, i.e., reaching the goal of the process, finishing it, or
completing it. This passing from the partial stature of childhood to the
full stature of manhood is the completion of a process. We are talking about
the total package: physical and mental appropriateness, fit, able, and ready
to be fully functional.

To me it seems acceptable to say that the body is "established" having
developed as far as its DNA programming has allowed it. Also, by this time,
there is mental maturity coupled with some experience. It is at this stage
that one being mature can function as a resource provider rather than a
resource consumer. After that point, it does not die but rather continues
for another 60 or 70 years of being useful. There are matters of degrees but
lets not allow that to spoil the analogy. Thereafter there are new cells
being constantly produced and maturing to replace old cells which are
replaced, but this does not mean that the body is still developing, only
getting old. The picture of the body represents the church, cells, tissues,
and organs compare to the individual members.

The gifts were the extra resources and care that the infant church required
until maturity was reached, then those babysitters and caretakers were not
needed and we can imagine how their continued exercise would inhibit the
full grown body from being useful. That is why it is a good thing to kick
your children out of the house and force them to be independent. Moma ought
not have to take care of a 28 year old like a 14 year old! The sooner they
get out on their own, the sooner they can "establish" themselves and start a
new family and be contributors to society instead of a drain on its
resources. That is more akin to how I am using the word "establish".

The use of the word established is my effort to relate maturity to the
corporate nature of the body of Christ since it sounds odd to say that such
is something that can reach a point of maturity even though that is what it
means. I am not trying to impress any different meanings, it is intended as
a synonym for the KJV's "perfect". The fact that the corporate Body of
Christ has come to a point of maturity through Paul and helpers is the basis
for the individual members having the potential to come to maturity. We are
talking about two distinct but related things.

In the infant church, maturity of individuals was accomplished by the
ministry of gifts until the "perfect" came in which the complete unity of
the faith, i.e., Jew and Gentile together as one, would be accomplished in
the Body. In the mature church, it is accomplished by those saints(thus
sealed by the HS in whom He works) who are older and mature and using the
word of God to equip and bring younger saints(sealed by the HS) to maturity.

Bruce wrote:
> That is why Paul wrote Ephesians 4:11-13! The work of the gifts of verse
> 11 has the purpose in view of perfecting(maturing) the saints. As saints
are
> maturing, they have the purpose in view of doing the work of ministry. The
> work of ministry has in view the purpose of edifying the body of Christ.
> Then Paul declares that this entire process continues "TILL WE ALL (all
the
> faithful in Christ Jesus whom God has blessed with all spiritual blessings
> in heavenly places in Christ Eph.1:1-3) come in the unity of the faith,
and
> of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure
of
> the staure of the fullness of Christ."

Ross responds:

The gifts were given to perfect the saints etc until the conditions of verse
13 are met. Once those conditions are met, they result in the benefits
described in 14 and following. Now I understand better what point you were
driving at with the "we all" of 13 versus the whole body of 16. Let me
qualify my answer in light of that. The "we all" looked forward to the
condition of verse 16 after having attained to the unity through the
ministry of the gifts. Once having reached that point, the gifts would no
longer be of use in the body. The mature Body is now equipped to mutually
edify without gifts which were temporary and inferior. This then is the
design of God for the body and how it is supposed to work as long as the
members are submitting to this institutional structure modeled after an
organism. (Remember it is a divine institution.)

The day of redemption is when the sons of God are made manifest and Christ's
Church is gathered up to Him in the clouds and equipped with incorruptible
bodies. That day shall be a future state of perfection. This is the
perfection we most always think of when perfection is mentioned. But for the
saint, this day of perfection must be distinguished from the state of
perfection in which one has attained personal spiritual maturity. God does
intend for us to function now, not just exist. A study of the words
expressing our expectation of our Lord's return do not allow for a wait in
which we are sitting on our thumbs. It entails activity. The difference
could be likened to the one waiting for a dental appointment in the clinic
as opposed to the gardener waithing for the harvest.

The maturity that God is seeking in the believer is spiritual. God intends
for the individual believer to reach a level of spiritual maturity, at which
point, one can be considered a meat eater and no longer a milk drinker. This
is not to say that there is no further learning or wisdom to be gained. What
it does mean is that we have more than just mastered the basics of the
faith, we are no longer novices, we have become competent. It is God's
desire that we attain the perfection of spiritual maturity and leave the
partiality of spiritual childhood behind.

In Christ,

Ross Purdy