House Church Talk - Re: House Church Talk Digest, Vol 3, Issue 62

[Claire Bennett]

The bread - Mel's quarentity:  Don't you think this is obvious symbolism?
Instead of using 3 pieces of Matzo, and breaking the middle matzoh, which
was part of the historical Passover feast, Gibson has created a quarentity -
four pieces of leavened bread - the leaven of adding to the scripture, along
with the occultic, unbiblical teachings, and Mary is a member of his four
person Godhead.  So here the script breaks with both Jewish historical
tradition and biblical accuracy.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <House Church Talk -request at housechurch.org>
To: <House Church Talk  at housechurch.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:00 AM
Subject: House Church Talk  Digest, Vol 3, Issue 62


> Send House Church Talk  mailing list submissions to
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Passion (Dan Beaty)
>    2. Re: House Church Talk  Digest, Vol 3, Issue 61 (Claire Bennett)
>    3. RE: Passion (Mike)
>    4. Re: Passion (Phillip Cohen)
>    5. China crackdown account contradicted (David Anderson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 21:57:02 -0500
> From: "Dan Beaty" <dlbeaty at copper.net>
> Subject: Re: House Church Talk -  Passion
> To: "House Church Talk" <House Church Talk  at housechurch.org>
> Message-ID: <000901c400cb$35576ea0$d8db23c7 at danbeaty>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Mike,
>
> We saw the movie Saturday. Overall I felt that it was effective in helping
> us to understand and appreciate our Lord's sufferings on our behalf. What
> did you mean by "Mel's personal religious convictions were evident through
> some scenes portraying Mary?"
>
> For me, Mary and the disciples, the man who helped to carry His Cross and
> even Pilate pulled us all into the event very powerfully. These and others
> revealed how deeply they were impacted by the Saviour in various ways.
>
> These characters were very crucial to the overall impact of the film, IMO.
>
> Dan B.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike" <a0006374 at airmail.net>
> To: "House Church Talk" <House Church Talk  at housechurch.org>
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:02 AM
> Subject: RE: House Church Talk -  Passion
>
>
> > I have now seen the movie twice, both times with small groups of my home
> > church so we could meet and discuss the movie afterwards.  The beatings
> and
> > scourging, IMHO, were not overdone.  If anything, after studying ancient
> > Rome and their attitudes of Palestine and having t serve there at that
> time,
> > the beatings were underplayed.  By far the majority of people did not
> > survive the beatings, that is why Pilate gave the specific order not to
> kill
> > him in the beating.  There were some inaccuracies that surprised me and
> > Mel's personal religious convictions were evident through some scenes
> > portraying Mary.  I was most disappointed that he left out the
Centurion's
> > declaration in Mark 15:39, Truly this man was the Son of God.  I was
also
> > disappointed that it appeared an earthquake tore the veil in the Temple
> and
> > it was torn, the best I could tell, from the bottom to the top.
> >
> > In my personal opinion I think the movie will have a limited
evangelistic
> > effect, but a greater effect on Christians in moving them away from the
> > gentle Jesus meek and mild who "just" died for our sins to a deeper
> > realization of just what a horrible price our sins did cost our Savior
in
> > agony and suffering.
> >
> > Just my personal, brief take on the movie
> > Mike S
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 21:12:39 -0800
> From: "Claire Bennett" <clairebnntt at cox.net>
> Subject: House Church Talk -  Re: House Church Talk  Digest, Vol 3, Issue 61
> To: <House Church Talk  at housechurch.org>
> Message-ID: <002d01c400de$2621b720$0301a8c0 at selfxfdobitvdd>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Bruce, I really like your quiz.  Could I repost it on my discussion board,
> Endtime Chaverim http://www.merville.biz/chaverim?
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <House Church Talk -request at housechurch.org>
> To: <House Church Talk  at housechurch.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:00 AM
> Subject: House Church Talk  Digest, Vol 3, Issue 61
>
>
> > Send House Church Talk  mailing list submissions to
> > House Church Talk  at housechurch.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > https://housechurch.org/mailman/listinfo/House Church Talk 
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > House Church Talk -request at housechurch.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > House Church Talk -owner at housechurch.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of House Church Talk  digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. RE: New testament church (Bruce Woodford)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 06:42:06 -0500
> > From: "Bruce Woodford" <bwood4d at hotmail.com>
> > Subject: RE: House Church Talk -  New testament church
> > To: House Church Talk  at housechurch.org
> > Message-ID: <BAY10-F104dDAO2Rpy900009047 at hotmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
> >
> > Hi Scott,
> > Thank you for your prayers! That's my heart beat as well.
> >
> > Here's the list. For your own interest, answer it all yourself before
> > checking the answers that follow.
> >
> > I'd be interested to hear your comments.
> >
> > Your brother in Christ,
> > Bruce
> >
> >
>
*********************************************************************DISCOVE
> R
> > HOW WELL YOU UNDERSTAND NEW COVENANT MINISTRY:
> >
> > -Place an "O" after Old Covenant practices-i.e. those which were to be
> > practiced between the time of Israel's receiving the covenant at Sinai
and
> > the death of Christ at Calvary.
> > -Place an "N" after New Covenant practices- i.e. those which are to be
> > practiced by saints after the death and resurrection of Christ.
> > -Place a "/" after practices that are never taught in scripture.
> >
> > 1. Teach speakers to preach to congregations from pulpits.  (   )
> > 2. Teach saints that when the church assembles together they are to
exhort
> > one another, edify one another, confess their faults one to another,
pray
> > one for another, comfort one another, rejoice with those who rejoice and
> > weep with those who weep.  (   )
> > 3. Teach believers to erect consecrated buildings as places of
> > worship/places to meet with God. (   )
> > 4. Teach all believers that they are members of the clergy. (   )
> > 5. Teach churches to meet in houses. (   )
> > 6. Teach Christians to take collections to give to evangelists,
preachers
> > and teachers who come to minister in the church. (   )
> > 7. Teach Christians to give tithes and offerings to help build and
> maintain
> > meeting places and support ministers.(   )
> > 8. Teach believers that they are all ministers. (   )
> > 9. Teach believers that all church leaders are to be "laymen". (   )
> > 10. Teach the saints to gather to listen to sermons. (   )
> > 11. Teach the saints that full-time workers are to be supported by
others
> > who work with  their hands.(   )
> > 12.Teach believers that their pastors are to work with their hands to
meet
> > their own needs and to support others. (   )
> > 13. Teach believers that full-time workers are to be given workers'
> letters
> > of commendation before commencing full-time Christian work (   )
> > 14. Teach believers to gather together to stir one another up to love
and
> > good works. (   )
> > 15. Teach believers that only specially qualified ministers may
administer
> > baptism and the Lord's supper. (   )
> > 16. Teach Christian women to wear headcoverings in church meetings.
(   )
> > 17. Teach Christian men not to wear hats or caps in church meetings.
(   )
> > 18. Teach believers to be quiet and reverent when they enter the house
of
> > the Lord on Sunday morning.  (   )
> > 19. Teach believers to contribute to corporate church collections every
> > Sunday.  (   )
> > 20. Teach believers that God dwells in buildings which are erected or
used
> > as places of worship. (   )
> > 21. Teach Christians that Sunday is the Lord's Day and Christians are to
> > keep this day holy unto the Lord. (   )
> > 22. Teach Christians to go to church at least every Sunday morning.
(   )
> > 23. Teach that most Christians are to be passive observers in church
> > services. (   )
> > 24. Teach Christians to be active participants when the church
> gathers.(   )
> > 25. Teach that those who have been gifted as evangelists, pastors and
> > teachers are to be remunerated for their ministry, but those whose gifts
> are
> > exhortation, giving, ruling, showing mercy etc are to minister freely,
> > voluntarily and without remuneration.  (   )
> > 26. Teach christians that they are to personally and privately store up
> the
> > collection for the saints on the first day of the week. (   )
> > 27. Teach God's people  to keep and observe a specific day of the week
and
> > certain days throughout the year in special ways. (   )
> > 28. Teach believers that they are all ordained ministers. (   )
> > 29.Teach Christians that whatever their ministry from the Lord to other
> > people, it is to be ministered freely without charge.  (   )
> >
> >
> >
> > New Covenant Ministry Answer Key (with scriptures):
> > 1. O  (Nehemiah 8:4)
> > 2. N  (Hebrews 10:24,25; I Thess.5:11; James 5:16)
> > 3. O (Ex.25:22; 30:6,36)
> > 4. N (I Peter 5:3, "heritage" is the Greek word KLEROS  from which we
get
> > our word "clergy".)
> > 5. N (Acts 8:3; Rom.16:5; I Cor.16:19; Col.4:15; Philemon 1:2)
> > 6. /   (Rather we are to help those who GO FROM US "taking nothing of
the
> > gentiles" or charging, requiring or demanding nothing  of the Gentiles
for
> > their ministry. III John 1:6-8)
> > 7. O  (Ex.25:1-8; Num.18:24,26,28)
> > 8. N  (I Peter 4:10,11)
> > 9. N  (I Peter 2:10, the "laity" are the LAOS or "people of God".)
> > 10. /  (We have been deceived that homilies are monologue sermons and
that
> > "homiletics" is the art of sermon preparation and delivery!  The Greek
> word
> > HOMILEO is used four times in the scriptures and every time it is a
> > conversation among a number of people! See Luke 24:14,15; Acts 20:11 and
> > 24:26. HOMILEO is translated "talked" and "communed".)
> > 11. O  (Numbers 18:24; Neh.10:37; 12:44; 13:5)
> > 12.N (Acts 20:33-35)
> > 13. /  (Neither "ordination certificates" for "Reverend pastors" nor
> > "worker's letters of commendation" are ever found in scripture!  Letters
> of
> > commendation were often written for travelling saints to commend them to
> > others at their destination.  Acts 18:27; Rom.16:1,2;  II Cor.3:1;
> 8:16-24;
> > Philippians 2:19-24 and 25-30 etc. But each such letter had only one
> journey
> > and one destination in view. There was not one kind of letter of
> > commendation for "ordinary Christians" and another for "Christian
> workers"!)
> > 14. N  (Hebrews 10:24,25)
> > 15. /  (If making disciples and teaching them to observe what the Lord
> Jesus
> > commanded is the responsibility of every believer, then so is the
> > responsibility to baptize such disciples. (Matt.28:18-20) NOBODY is
given
> > authority to "administer" the Lord's Supper!  Every believer is
commanded,
> > "This do in remembrance of me."!  (Luke 22:19)
> > 16. /  (Rather, when they pray or prophesy. I Cor.11:5)
> > 17. /  (Rather, when they pray or prophesy.  I Cor.11:4)
> > 18. / (Believers ARE  the house of the Lord 24/7!  I Cor.3:16; Eph.2:22)
> > 19. /  (I Cor.16:1,2 has personal ("every one of you") and private ("lay
> by
> > him in store")
> >         collections in view, not corporate collections in a gathering!
> > 20. O  (Ex.25:8, but is no longer true today. Acts 7:48; 17:24)
> > 21. / (If just Sunday is "the Lord's Day", whose are all the rest???
See
> > Romans 14:5,6 and Col.2:16,17)
> > 22. /  (Christians don't GO to church, they ARE the church!  Just as I
> don't
> > "go to Woodford", I AM a Woodford!  )
> > 23. /  Body members all have their own functions to fulfill as directed
by
> > the Head.  I Cor.12
> > 24. N  (Heb.10:24,25)
> > 25. / (Such a distinction is never taught in scripture!  Rather, we are
> > members in a body and as each member ministers as it is meant to, and as
> it
> > is directed by the Head, the needs of all the members in the body are
met.
> I
> > Cor.12:14-27)
> > 26. N  (I Cor.16:1,2)
> > 27. O  (Ex.20:8-11; Lev.23:3-37;  Romans 14:5,6; Col.2:16,17)
> > 28. N  (John 15:16 -ordained to bear fruit that remains;  I Pet.4:10,11
> all
> > are gifted and all are to minister as good stewards of the manifold
grace
> of
> > God.)
> > 29. N  (Matt.10:8; Acts 20:33-35; I Cor.9:18)
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
> >
>
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> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > House Church Talk  mailing list
> > House Church Talk  at housechurch.org
> > https://housechurch.org/mailman/listinfo/House Church Talk 
> >
> >
> > End of House Church Talk  Digest, Vol 3, Issue 61
> > **************************************
> >
>
>
>
> ---------------------/img-----
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 05:05:43 -0600
> From: "Mike" <a0006374 at airmail.net>
> Subject: RE: House Church Talk -  Passion
> To: "House Church Talk" <House Church Talk  at housechurch.org>
> Message-ID: <FOEMLFDKNMDMLBNEGCJMKEMNECAA.a0006374 at airmail.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dan,
>
> I agree that the characters were very critical to the overall impact of
the
> film.  For the most part I felt that all the actors did a very good job
> portraying their characters.  From every reliable source I have found Mel
is
> a very devoted Catholic and as such holds to the deification of Mary. I
had
> problems with one scene that showed Mary walking around crying, then
falling
> on the pavestones, hugging them and crying harder.  The camera shot then
> went straight through the stones and ground to show that she was directly
> above Jesus who was hanging in a dungeon. Also what mother is going to sop
> up the blood of her just beaten son?  For that matter, why did Pilate's
wife
> bring the cloth to her?  Why did all the disciples call Mary mother
> throughout the film?  To the best of my understanding and research this
was
> not a term of respect.  This would actually be disrespectful to their own
> mothers, for Jews had and have a strong sense of family.
>
> Mel portrayed the traditional Catholic positions of the cross in the
movie.
> To do this he had to deviate from historical reality.  To have the two
> thieves carry their crossbeams, but Jesus carry His whole cross is an
> example of this.  To have the beams all of nicely cut lumber is another.
> Historically the Romans did not and would not have used beautifully
squared
> lumber notched out for a perfect fit to crucify a criminal.  There were no
> saw mills.  They didn't go down to Home Depot and pick up square beams.
> With the tools available at the time think of the hours involved in
> producing such perfectly formed beams.  Those would have been used in the
> homes of the very, very rich, not to kill criminals.
>
> The flashback to the Passover when Jesus took the bread and said Take,
eat,
> this is My body.  They did not use matzo.  They used bread with leaven in
> it.  The movie had Jesus just pick up the top piece of four pieces of
bread.
> Historically, the particular piece that Jesus took was the half of the
> center piece from the Unity.  The Unity has three sections, each holding
one
> piece of matzo.  The center piece is taken, broken in half, hidden, then
> later "redeemed" by the father presiding over the Seder service to the one
> who finds it.  It was that piece of unleavened bread, taken from the
three,
> broken, wrapped in a clean linen cloth and hidden away, then brought out,
> revealed, and redeemed that Jesus took, broke, and said this represents my
> body.  This is a part of the Passover Haggadah that the Jews have been
doing
> for centuries.  To the Christian the symbolism is obvious.  The three
pieces
> of unleavened bread in a Unity is the Father, the Son, and the Holy
Spirit.
> The three are One.  The center piece, the Son, is taken broken in half.
One
> half left in the Unity.  One half wrapped in a clean linen cloth and
hidden
> away.  Jesus was all man and all God.  The third cup of the Passover, The
> Cup of Redemption, is the cup Jesus took and said, take, drink all of it,
> for this represents my blood.  The Passover is a beautiful story of what
it
> cost to have death pass over us so that we might find life in Jesus. There
> was no leaven, no sin, in Jesus.
>
> With these problems (at least to me) and a few others, I still think this
> was by far the best portrayal of the Passion I have ever seen. It should
at
> least give us a briefest glimpse of the smallest portion of the agony my
> sins caused my Lord Jesus.
>
> Hope I was clearer without being too long.
>
> Mike S
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: House Church Talk -bounces at housechurch.org
> [mailto:House Church Talk -bounces at housechurch.org]On Behalf Of Dan Beaty
> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 8:57 PM
> To: House Church Talk
> Subject: Re: House Church Talk -  Passion
>
>
> Mike,
>
> We saw the movie Saturday. Overall I felt that it was effective in helping
> us to understand and appreciate our Lord's sufferings on our behalf. What
> did you mean by "Mel's personal religious convictions were evident through
> some scenes portraying Mary?"
>
> For me, Mary and the disciples, the man who helped to carry His Cross and
> even Pilate pulled us all into the event very powerfully. These and others
> revealed how deeply they were impacted by the Saviour in various ways.
>
> These characters were very crucial to the overall impact of the film, IMO.
>
> Dan B.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike" <a0006374 at airmail.net>
> To: "House Church Talk" <House Church Talk  at housechurch.org>
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:02 AM
> Subject: RE: House Church Talk -  Passion
>
>
> > I have now seen the movie twice, both times with small groups of my home
> > church so we could meet and discuss the movie afterwards.  The beatings
> and
> > scourging, IMHO, were not overdone.  If anything, after studying ancient
> > Rome and their attitudes of Palestine and having t serve there at that
> time,
> > the beatings were underplayed.  By far the majority of people did not
> > survive the beatings, that is why Pilate gave the specific order not to
> kill
> > him in the beating.  There were some inaccuracies that surprised me and
> > Mel's personal religious convictions were evident through some scenes
> > portraying Mary.  I was most disappointed that he left out the
Centurion's
> > declaration in Mark 15:39, Truly this man was the Son of God.  I was
also
> > disappointed that it appeared an earthquake tore the veil in the Temple
> and
> > it was torn, the best I could tell, from the bottom to the top.
> >
> > In my personal opinion I think the movie will have a limited
evangelistic
> > effect, but a greater effect on Christians in moving them away from the
> > gentle Jesus meek and mild who "just" died for our sins to a deeper
> > realization of just what a horrible price our sins did cost our Savior
in
> > agony and suffering.
> >
> > Just my personal, brief take on the movie
> > Mike S
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 09:04:08 -0600
> From: Phillip Cohen <spiritfilledhome at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: House Church Talk -  Passion
> To: House Church Talk  at housechurch.org
> Message-ID: <20040303.090410.2072.4.spiritfilledhome at juno.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> It's interesting how Mel has succeeded in creating a movie that
> practically every person has both negative and positive feelings about.
> Here's a couple of mine.
>
> While some of the historical accuracy may have been off, the spirit of
> Christ's suffering has been captured.
>
> Two scenes that especially touched me: When Mary jolted awake from sleep
> and asked "Why is this night different from all other nights?" Wow!! That
> was the first of the 4 questions we were traditionally supposed to ask at
> the Passover. And the traditional answer was . . .
>
> The other scene was when Mary found Jesus and held Him. As she tried to
> comfort Him, He said, "I make all things new."
>
> Running to Him,
> Phillip & Mary Cohen
> spiritfilledhome at juno.com
> God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 11:18:50 -0500
> From: David Anderson <david at housechurch.org>
> Subject: House Church Talk -  China crackdown account contradicted
> To: <House Church Talk  at housechurch.org>, <ntcp at housechurch.org>
> Message-ID: <E1AyZ4u-0005Yl-00 at mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
> http://asiaharvest.org/newsrpt.htm
>
> Conflicting Reports from China - February 2004
>
> In mid to late February several well-respected publications, including
> Christianity Today and Assist News Service, published alerts that about
> 50 house church leaders in China have been arrested as the result of a
> new DVD and book about the Church in China.
>
> The articles are linked here (see web address above), followed by a
> response by the organization who produced the DVD, denying that all but
> three of these arrests took place and also denying those arrests were in
> any way because of their production.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> House Church Talk  mailing list
> House Church Talk  at housechurch.org
> https://housechurch.org/mailman/listinfo/House Church Talk 
>
>
> End of House Church Talk  Digest, Vol 3, Issue 62
> **************************************
>