God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3
I saw this video yesterday and posted the following comment on YouTube...
Rather than trying to convince a guy like this that he's not following Scripture, I take the position that if you're arguing about church policy and not bringing Christ to me then you have no authority within the ekklesia. Hebrews 13:17 is a favorite verse of elders to justify their rule, but if you back up 10 verses to verse 7 then you'll find this... "Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith." Clearly, a leader is one who speaks the word of God - namely, our sinful state, our need for a Savior, and the redemptive work of Christ. I'm not sure what this guy's motivation is for his rant, but it's certainly not to teach the faithful about the suffering, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus.
This gets me right back to the ABCs of the church - Anything But Christ. All of these things are just distractions that get us bickering over theological positions and away from discussing our dear Lord and Savior. Do you think that this "pastor" really cares about the development of the faith of his flock? Should he not care more that people are gathering in the name of Jesus rather than worrying about how they gather? For anyone who wants to be a spiritual leader, besides being a Christian in the manner of 1 John 4, I believe that it's imperative that they view **all** Christians as equals since we are all equally sinful in the eyes of God. After six decades of being in the institutional church, God has opened my eyes to how destructive it is, especially the denominational systems which encourage division and mistrust rather than foster unity and edification.
Down boy, down ... Haha.
Seriously, I should not judge this guy's motives too fast. He's likely just sincerely wrong. Only knowing what he has been taught all of his life. So, he may not necessarily be worried about money coming in for a new pool upgrade.
Welcome my dear brother Cal. Yes, we know that Jesus is in our midst regardless of the number. Thank you for introducing yourself!
There are about 900 registered users here but the vast majority do not share. Which is OK.
With the push of a button, there should be convenient video calls available directly from this site, via jitsi. But alas - there apparently is a glitch which I have just discovered in the Messenger app. I will get back with you as soon as possible.
The standard membership is the main one. Most of the features are available. You should be able to post photos and links and discussions. youTube videos can also be also embedded.
As you are aware, stored video (unlike streaming video or embedded links) requires huge amounts of memory. Making backups almost unmanageable. In the past, people have uploaded huge videos which were not particularly related to house church themes. So, videos are restricted at this point.
However, short videos can be emailed to me. I can probably shrink them down to fit and then post them.
Thankfully, there are many general interest Christian sites where general topics can be discussed. And big files can be uploaded and permanently stored, I would suppose.
Hang on, I'll get back with you soon. Hopefully, in the days ahead, others will read your 'long story' and and like "the forlorn and ship-wrecked brother" find their way back to the Savour's arms.
https://housechurch.org/view-discussion/a-forlorn-and-shipwrecked-brother
Greetings Todd B.
I would truly enjoy some virtual Zoom meet up! I've been involved with various "Discord" Server's and let me tell you it is very chaotic, and so many "every wind of doctrines" being thrown out and discussed, that I found that it was not true fellowship!
I am still a "Standard" member, and would like info on how to become another type of member so I can start posting, etc....however I can not find where I can do that, or what the qualifications are to become other than a "Standard" member.
Can you, and would you be able to inform me what to do, I would be very grateful for it.
Lord bless you....
I do hear you brother. I've been out of the "church system" for about 20 years. I live alone, never married, no children. It's been difficult at times dealing with the loneliness, not having anyone to have true fellowship with since. However, the Lord has replaced that loneliness with His presence, and the Holy Spirit has been teaching me more because of it.
I, in my first couple of months of being birthed into the Lord's Kingdom, by His Will 46 yrs ago, a "new babe" in Christ, I got caught up into a Home Fellowship in spring of 1978, lead by a woman, it was called "His Rest Christian Fellowship" it was on the most part a "communal living" in one house with of a couple of families, singles etc.,
I was with them for about 8 yrs on & off. To keep it short, the fellowship was raided by police for abuses carried out some parents, and the woman leader. She ended up for about 4-6 months in prison. I left the group shortly after the raid totally shocked, and my world was shattered, and such confusion. Anyway, it was a "cult", and I was not growing in the knowledge of the Lord, because everything I did was too please her the "Lord's anointed", which was planly Idolatry so my many personal struggles of certain deep sins, were not being dealt with by the Spirit but by the flesh and obedience to her.
So I do understand your struggles.
The Lord bless you...
You were taught in school about the visitors who arrived here in 1620. The Pilgrims. The Mayflower. The Mayflower Compact. Plymouth Rock. The first Thanksgiving.
These were Congregationalists. They came in search of religious freedom, among other things. And they were very keen on shared leadership and participation according to one's abilities - unlike the Puritans who carefully guarded their pulpits.
400 years later, these matters are still being vigorously debated.
Hey Dan, thank you so much for your thoughts here. And a Happy Thanksgiving to you and everyone else who visits this website to learn more about Christ and His church
Since I left the institutional church system a couple of years ago, I have not returned nor have I found a replacement. I did some investigation into house churches in my area (near Seattle), but I found nothing suitable. I'm a strong believer in the unity of the assembly. As I dove into the details, I bumped up against the problem that my beliefs on the operation of the church might not square with any of the existing assemblies, and the last thing that I want to do is cause division among God's people. So I've mostly sat on the outside looking in, longing for fellowship but unable to make progress.
This last year has seen me take a different path. I've long been active in Internet groups like this commenting on things of interest to God's people, but more and more I see my participation in these groups as my "church". I don't have the strong ties that I would with a local body of believers, but on the other hand I find it extremely freeing to connect with people who share my same set of priorities (namely, our relationship with God as sinners, God's kingdom reign, and the preeminence of Christ). I've found great comfort connecting with people on this website, but I would like more. Not only more contact, but also a deeper connection on the role of Christ as our Savior. I love that we push back on the institutional church as the disaster that it is, but I feel like there's an opportunity to grow beyond just being a voice of sanity in the world of Christendom. My experience has been that no matter where I go within the kingdom of God, so many things other than our dear Savior distract us
To that end, I've put some thought into setting up a Discord server where we can all talk about the church more interactively. I've been reluctant to do so for a few reasons. First, what makes this web site and others like it important is that it is not private. Anything posted here is visible to world, so anyone visiting has access to a rich set of comment history and thought about the church. I find that to be invaluable. This web site was a real blessing to me as I wrestled to discover that there is life after the institutional church and what that life could look like
The other reason that I haven't yet set up a Discord server is that, like any other social media setup, there will be a lot of housekeeping that eventually will distract from the main mission of the group. There are sure to be interlopers. But even within the ekklesia, it's very easy to become focused on things other than our salvation. Managing the server could become a huge time commitment that takes away from the truly important things of our faith
Although I'm not ready to start anything new just quite yet, I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on meeting virtually in a way that we can all contribute and be more connected
My family grew up in a very passionate form of Christianity. There were errors in theology but not when it came to believing in the bible. We were very much against the greater forms of organized denominational Christianity. Individual members were usually very active in their faith, however the clergy/laity divide was still strong. In the mid 1970's I caught the vision of the church as the Body of Christ. I believed that every member should function to their full potential, and that this would lead to a greater victory for Christ in this world.
After realizing that even the smallest congregations were being held back by the traditional systems, I discovered the house church movement. There I saw the possibility for every member to freely participate. The other great advantage was freedom from the care and feeding of the organized system which often consumes so much time and resources. I have learned much since those days. My wife and I hosted many meetings over the course of 15 years, after which this period in our lives gradually ended.
We were never satisfied to be alone and disconnected. We found fellowship in various small groups and home bible studies. Some of these led to visiting a small church that allowed for more freedom and more opportunities for us than even the house church movement allowed. My experience has shown that there are pros and cons to both traditional church groups and house church groups. I suspect that the pros and cons are basically inherent to our human nature.
That said, I long for more of us who truly believe in the New Testament way of church life to be more open to the others out there. Larger churches do have ways to serve the community that small groups and house churches do not. If we could only help them to see the unhealthy aspects of the organized systems that often hold them back.
Another hope I have is for house churches to co-operate with one another. A dozen or so house churches in a city could rent a facility every month or so so we could encourage one another more. We could also pool our resources in order to serve the community in creative ways. This may be happening in other areas, but our efforts here have all failed so far. It appears that mega churches are continuing to grow in our area. That should not trouble us. We should listen to the Lord and serve others for His sake. There are needs that even mega churches cannot meet, but a strong commitment would be needed.
The Interlinear Bible (https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/2-17.htm) has the word "peddling". The YLT, which I use frequently, uses "adulterating". I think that any of those translations speak of those who would pervert God's word for profit, though the NIV calls it out more directly. The troubling thing with the NIV is that it adds the phrase "as those sent from God" that I don't see elsewhere. It's this "dynamic equivalence" that causes me to avoid the NIV. Human opinion, no matter how true, has no place in Scripture. Otherwise you can just stop reading the Bible and instead read only catechisms and confessions.
As to your point on the billions spent on "the ministry", I only see this being corrected when Christ holds our every thought captive (Col 1:15-20). Recently I coined the term "The ABCs of church - Anything But Christ". It seems that our churches will briefly mention Jesus as an important aspect of the faith, yet when you look at how they operate then it becomes clear that our Savior is more of an afterthought than the central (and only) figure. It's why I finally gave up on the institutional church. Church rules and traditions govern its operation. And lest anyone think that this is a problem with the Catholic Church only, I suggest that you think again. Protestant churches are no different. The Protestants fixed church theology with their understanding of justification by faith, yet the notion that good people go to Heaven pervades the institution today.
A number of years ago, I got caught up in believing that I was somehow responsible for my own salvation. Synergism is appealing because it allows us the same control over God that we exercise daily over own lives. Culturally, I'm taught to "pick myself up by the bootstraps" for a better life. This concept in so ingrained in our society that it is the thing by which all other things are measured. It's no wonder that the sign of a healthy church is not the proclamation of sin and our need for a Savior, but rather how much money flows into the coffers or how many talk shows the celebrity preacher has appeared on in the previous week.
What I find missing from virtually every church, including those that are most conservative like the ones that I've attended throughout my life, is their treatment of sin. I'm not talking about the "hellfire and brimstone" churches that don't preach the Gospel. What I'm talking about is churches modeled after Psalm 51 and the kingdom reign of God as found in the New Testament. Many churches are unlikely to address the reality of sin at all. Others, like my old church, have a time at the beginning of every service where the pastor addresses the need for Christ, but then quickly acknowledges that our debt was paid on the cross and then moves on to the next element of the service without a second thought. Whatever happened to David's cry to "create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me" (Psalm 51:10)? Or "the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise"(v17)?
Our culture has no place for the things of God, so it's no surprise when the church seeks to profit from those who come seeking something that makes them feel better about themselves. When was the last time that you heard anyone stand up to confess their sins and seek God's forgiveness? Our churches are not structured for this. To them, it's all about victory and not about confession.
These last few years especially, I am a broken man. I have no home in today's church system. As with King David, "I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me" (Psalm 51:7). Yet the joy of my salvation is greater than I could ever express because God has turned my unrighteousness into His perfection through the sacrifice of Christ. My prayer is that God gives us all the desire to turn away from the things of this world and to turn toward him, so that profiting from church becomes a thing of the past.
Compare the KJV and the NIV versions of 2 Corinthians 2:17. They seem to be saying something different.
For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. KJV
Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, as those sent from God. NIV
Scholars believe that the NIV is the correct interpretation of the original. And why does this matter? It matters because the church has a massive money problem: Tens of billions for the "the ministry" but precious little for ministry.
Recently I discovered this book on the topic which I found stimulating:
The Fullness of Christ, by John Howard Yoderhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/1532679106?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title
I have a couple of thoughts on the doctrine of the Priesthood of All Believers...
First, a few years ago when I was still a member of an OPC church, there were some struggles around social issues that came up in the church. The elders made a controversial and unnecessary ruling on how members should handle the matter, and some of the members visibly rebelled. At one point the leadership called a Town Hall meeting, in which the members were told that because they made a commitment to follow the church leadership without question then they were expected to comply, I then began to ask a lot of hard questions in the following weeks. The responses that I received from leadership ranged from "if you do what we tell you then you're covered with God" to "who do you think you are telling the elders what you think the Scriptures mean". I felt as though I had joined the Catholic Church, not one that has deep ties to the Reformation. It was then that I resigned my church membership and eventually left the church after I was told that Communion was not for people like me (not a member of an "approved" church). The sad part in the whole affair is that despite what was taught in the church, it was clear that the teaching of the Priesthood of All Believers was ignored. As was Sola Scriptura since responses to my questions were answered from the Westminster Confession and Church Order. Everything that I had ever learned in the nearly 60 years prior to that time was rendered inoperative by this church. But in retrospect, it is this way throughout the institutional church system. The vast majority have rules around Communion or church membership that require some kind of adherence to the man-made rules of that church. To know if someone is a Christian, we only need to look to 1 John 4 which tells us that anyone who professes that Jesus is God Incarnate, come in the flesh to save us from our sins, is a Christian (especially verses 2 & 14-15)
Second, because so many people fail to fully understand that they have direct access to God, the clergy uses this to their advantage. I can't list the number of times that I've been told that denominations are good because they keep people from believing just about anything. Not only is this not true, but over these last few years I have benefitted greatly from different perspectives from within the Body of Christ. I find that people outside of the church system are much more concerned with the unity of the ekklesia. Additionally, I have this site to thank for meaningful discussions on the kingdom reign of God. Further, I have a YouTube channel that I follow that is particularly focused on our sin and God's righteousness (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJk02o8Gbi-kNn7lSvcABaA for anyone interested). There are an amazing number of Christians out there who confess that Jesus is "the Messiah, the Son of the Living God" (Matt 16:16). It's just that they express their faith in ways that fall far outside of the institutional church system. While I find that I sometimes miss the comfort that a structured system gave me, I don't miss the shackles that came with it
Let's go over to Oxford, one of the oldest schools around. Founded in 1096. Long before your family discovered America.
Listen to what was being said 130 years ago. Although a high churchman, this great teacher/writer was certainly aimed in the right direction in order to restore the dignity and ministry of every believer in the Son of God.
Every instinct within him cried out for further reformation and radical changes of how priesthood and ministry are viewed.
He was a very deep thinker offering vast implications for the church and for life. We'll look forward to meeting him in glory.
Famous Chicago pastor. Reminding us of true eldership. I wonder if he realizes the simplicity of older (elder) Christians being obligated for the welfare of the young.
Not to mention the rewards - double blessings - which come back to us in this life. Did you hear his comment about this?
We hear a lot these days about mentors and life coaches and therapists. The city of Atlanta, for example, has the reputation of having a "Christian counselor on every corner."
That aside, we are thrilled to see Christians reclaiming the streets in God's world. And we are always looking for commonality with other believers wherever we can find it.
Biblical eldership is so simple.... only a theologian could miss it. Unfortunately, theologians control the seminaries and seminaries control what future pastors will believe and teach.
Future generations will be amazed at our ignorance.
projecthood.org
This photo typifies the uneven proportion of men and women in churches around the world. Now why is this?
The question may arise: Could a woman plant a house church? Of course she could. But technically it is not required of men or women to "plant churches". Christians simply meet as the church.
What is planted is the gospel seed, according to Jesus and Paul. We can all agree that women are quite capable of sharing it.
Satan has a masterplan to subvert, diminish, over-complicate, and destroy the church. Sadly, we too often play right into his hands.
Below in your front page feed is a post about pastors being encouraged to support others. The context is financial support. Untold millions of times, the church has been told to "support the pastor".
Another complete reversal of meaning regards the ministry. Most Christians still do not regard themselves as ministers or servants. And their actions usually demonstrate it. Please notice that the ministry belongs to every believer - young or old.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Ephesians 4: 11-12.
It is the saints who are performing this work. Ministry is not an office.
We daily lament the lack of influence of the Christian church at large. But we can only blame ourselves that we are certainly not the servant church which God intended. We thank God for the exceptions - but they are much too few.
Hello dear Todd and Doug. I apologize for this pesky inconvenience. Things should be back to normal as of last night. And may the Lord direct your steps as you seek fellowship with others.
Technically, the Messenger system utilizes jotserver which required a simple restart from root level.
This site is on auto-pilot. That means that postings are forwarded to admin via email as they occur. Strangely, these notification emails went straight to the trash bin on my iCloud mail account.
I do not look for a conspiracy theory under every leaf but I know that more and more emails containing the word church get magically routed to junk mail folders.
Last night we tried again to rent the famous movie: The Ten Commandments. Again, on Prime Video, the "page could not be found." I abhor big tech and will look for a dvd copy at the Good Will store.
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. John 10:10.
I just joined and also don’t seem able to send a DM. Would be great to know when they get this fixed as I’m looking for a house church in my area.
I'm trying to send a DM to another member and all I get is "Connecting..." and I'm blocked from sending my message. Is that part of the site down?
Hi Chris,
I read your article with great interest. I too believe that "the rock" in Matt 16:18 refers to the truth contained in Peter's testimony. In fact, I've written about it on this site (https://housechurch.org/cmts-view/12d797z?sys=bx_forum&cmt_id=267) and elsewhere. Rather than repeat myself, let me just say that I think that the key point when interpreting that passage is to place the focus on Jesus and not Peter. After all, as you point out, the passage starts with Jesus asking "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" and narrowing the question later to "But who do you say that I am?". That entire passage is all about the Christ (cf Colossians 1:15-20), so to then believe that Jesus is turning Peter into a pope or creating the office of elder seems pretty nonsensical.
Since this appears to be your first post to this site, please let me be the first to welcome you and to encourage you to participate as the Lord leads you.
I wrote a short article just two days ago. If we're to get elders right, along with everything else, we really do need to listen to Jesus on the topic. I agree with much that's written above, and I'm encouraged by it. So you might like 'I will build my church'.
David, I echo your cry for simplicity. I am so thankful that we have the New Testament to prove how powerful the community of believers can be as they walk in simple obedience and faith in our Lord Jesus.
Why is there no precise list of church officers in the New Testament which is elsewhere repeated in the New Testament?
In Titus, there is a long list of requirements for elders. In Timothy, there are long lists of requirements together for elders and for deacons.
In Philippians, there are overseers and servants mentioned together. Bishops and deacons, they're called. But the word for deacon is the same word for servant - a name referring to any service. So, Paul could be addressing the elder/overseers and everyone else besides them.
Here are three comprehensive "leadership" lists. Though similar, they are not the same.
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness. Romans 12:5-8
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 1 Cor. 12:4-10
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Ephesians 4.
The lost key, I believe, to divine and biblical church leadership is fluidity - fluidity of servant actions rather than the filling of church positions.
True enough, there are requirements made of elder men, of elder women, younger men, and of servants in particular and in general. Yet we cannot deduce that there is an office of elder women or an office of younger men or an office of servants or an office of tongue-speakers.
Be very suspicious of Bible versions which add the word office about a half dozen times, by the way.
Imagine with me... Oh, what a beautiful thing to behold. Each empowered Christian using his/her gifts and resources for the others without regard to status or to office or to being paid.
We prefer everything to fit into a neat little package but that is not case with regard to church structure. We should be thinking in broader terms, it so appears. And praying for more gifts which will edify others.
Take for example, the table "servers" in Acts 7. Deacons, they have come to be called. More than one of these "deacons" also preached and baptized. One became the first martyr. Yet, in the minds of most, the "deacons" main task is a lesser one when compared to the pastors or to preachers. But remember, Jesus stated that if you would be great in his Kingdom, you must be a servant (deacon) of others.
Paul, the apostle, also refers to himself as an elder and a deacon (minister). Notice that Judas, the apostle, in the first chapter of Acts, is referred to - not only as an apostle but as having a ministry (diakonios). Yet, he is not remembered in modern times as a minister nor a deacon.
Over the years, we have focused on the role of the elders (older ones) as the natural shepherds or pastors - not requiring an election nor an ordination service nor a seminary degree nor a salary. This however would not rule out the possibility or even likelihood of young overseers. After all, the younger ones would eventually become the older ones (elders) who are charged with caring for the flock of God. That is, unless they are recent converts to the faith.
Pause and ponder today: If Paul put young Timothy into an administrative position over certain geographic regions, his useful, youthful agent would have surely been qualified to oversee things in a single house church as a pastor.
Do you see the fluidity? Think of gifts and responsibilities - not positions which are waiting to be fulfilled. Do you remember the text above which referred to pastor/teachers? Here is it assumed that the pastors would also be teachers. As they should be. Elsewhere we read of teachers without any regard to a pastoral role.
And with fluidity, don't overlook the element of liberty in the early church leadership framework. A sudden need arose for widows needing daily food. So, these workers were immediately brought into the picture. Problem solved.
So in short summary, if you can (ability) serve others - you should (permission) serve others! Are not the needs greater than ever?
We seriously need to simplify things. Because they have become needlessly complicated and expensive. The vast portion of church funds today goes towards leadership and other cumbersome machinery deemed indispensable.
Do we really believe that the early Christians, often meeting in homes, were paying out professional salaries?
Please show me a church which is feeding needy people everyday. Yes, thankfully there are a few - but they are rare gems indeed.
Again I enquire: Why in the entire New Testament, is there no list of church leaders which perfectly corresponds to another list of the same?
David, your thoughts aligned with mine when I read Dan's post. (I've been meaning to reply ever since he posted but struggled to complete my thoughts.) We were once part of a ministry that eventually fell apart because the reason to form it was no longer important to those of us who put in the effort to get it going. It was a valuable lesson that has really impacted my view of the church.
I really hate what our culture has done to the church. You said, "many saints got badly hurt and even battered in the institutional churches". I agree. Yet when I look back to my own experiences then I have no one to blame other than myself for any anger and hurt that I felt at that time. My true motivation was not "maturity in Christ and ministry to others" as you so aptly put. Those things that drew me to be a part of the church at that time were not eternal things that last. Instead, they were cultural. It reminds me a lot of Jesus following the feeding of the 5,000 as found in John 6:22-71. As you read this, please note that Jesus questions the crowd's motives, tells them exactly who it is that stands before them, then watches many of his followers turn away...
I Am the Bread of Life
22 On the next day the crowd that remained on the other side of the sea saw that there had been only one boat there, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with his disciples, but that his disciples had gone away alone. 23 Other boats from Tiberias came near the place where they had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24 So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor his disciples, they themselves got into the boats and went to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.
25 When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” 26 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” 30 So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
The Words of Eternal Life
60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him.
Jesus indictment of the crowd's motives is clear when He says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves." Apparently an all-you-can-eat, free meal was a crowd favorite back in Jesus' day too. :-) In the end, Jesus makes this story about Himself, as does the rest of Scripture
So the question becomes, "what is our motivation for church?" In the institutional church, it seems all to easy to get distracted by 1,000 things other than Christ. But cannot the same be said of house churches as well? And do not many of our concerns arise because of the culture we live in rather than what Scripture tells us about our spiritual condition?
In general, I find myself very much aligned in my thinking with those here who are skeptical of how the institutional churches are run by those who govern them. But how easy I personally find it to make that single issue the focus of the time that I spend thinking of God. If I'm to be honest though, I find it much easier to blame others for my poor motives. I need to stop seeking after the fish and the loaves and instead remember that Christ is the living bread and water
Your observation is true, Dan. House churches have been oversold and buyer's remorse often followed. Looking back, the motivation seemed to be more from rebellion (defined as freedom or revolution). These aspects do have considerable merit but eventually can wear thin.
Another big pull factor, also legitimate, was that many saints got badly hurt and even battered in the institutional churches.
The best motivation - which is never perfect in this life - should have been maturity in Christ and ministry to others. But as you know, people would rather complain and be lazy rather than serve one another and win the lost.
Ephesians 4:11-13 – And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.
Perhaps, in the providence of God, some churches were meant to be seasonal or short-lived. I cannot say. The longing of the heart, in most people, is to belong to a larger group beyond the home. It's just in their DNA. So it seems.
By the way... Years ago, maybe 25 or 30, we visited a home meeting at your address in Ohio. Before arriving there, I remember seeing the vast farmlands as far as the eye could see. I am from the South, as you are aware. It was at that point I was reminded that the supposed justification of slavery on the basis of southern farms being too big to manage without black labor - was a very lame and cruel excuse indeed.
Brother, you have left a clear testimony and a pathway with many blessings to others. I thank you for your friendship. And with you, I long for members of every ethnic group to join hands and bow together at the cross of Christ. Then to arise and declare his glory and preeminencein all things.
Human nature has not changed. The young have frequently opposed their elders down through the ages.
I've done my part... :) As I teenager, I heard a record by the Who. One of the lines was: "I hope I die before I get old". I remember recoiling at that, knowing inside that it displeased the Almighty.
I would like to ask Pete Townsend today: Now that YOU are old, do you still want to die? But I already know the answer.
No. Elders are no longer VIPs as they were in times past. Actually, many do not deserve to be VIPs. Some are more immature than youths.
Going back through history, we notice the first mention of elders are the elders of... Egypt. I recall Ruth being commended for pursing an older guy. And Rehaboam taking his cues from the young men - not the elders.
Brother Dan, soooo good to see you, my long-time friend.
I'll now post a short video piece of a fine message from a faithful brother. You will find it interesting to this discussion.
As you noticed, I've been pretty keen on the subject of eldership. Because many Christian seniors do not have a clue that they are to encourage and shepherd the young. See 1 Peter 5.
Thankfully for some - their instincts are better than their doctrines and they do it anyway.
Regrettable, we made an office and a profession out of a elder in the church - more akin to a Parish Priest than a caring brother in Christ.
Not noticing that some versions of the Bible contain more than half a dozen insertions of the word office, regarding leadership roles.
What could be more natural within the body of Christ than for the old to watch out for the younger ones?
Wise words from a youtube video: Why These Powerful MEGA CHURCH Pastors Fell From Ministry!
David,
You wrote:
"And? Context is everything. In the early church, unlike our own age, the senior men and women were VIP's. So important was their welfare - if anyone neglected them, they were worse than an infidel and had departed from the faith. When the letters and gospels were read in the early church and the word elder came up, there was already thousands of years of context in play. So, no introduction was needed."
This is striking in relationship with a recent situation in our area. Many families in our area are leaving their churches to join with churches that appeal more to their children. I am told these churches are sound in biblical teachings and practices, but the appeal is in their younger leadership.
Seniority is often seen as a liability these days.
Back in the 1990's my wife and I participated in house church for around 15 years. We met many wonderful people and learned a lot in the various conferences and retreats. We also observed that many start ups would only last for a year or so. They would begin with great enthusiasm and then the enthusiasm would fade eventually.
Many found this normal and acceptable at the time. I have not been in contact with many house churches lately but I have wondered if things are changing along these lines. Are there many going strong for over 5 years or more?
Dan B
The early church met on the "first day of the week" which in those days was Sunday because Saturday was the Sabbath (a holiday or like a weekend). Sunday was considered the first business day or commercial day of the week in those days which is like our Monday today. Out group used to meet Friday nights, now we meet Saturday nights only out of convenience and no other reason. Lots of people have really religious reasons for meeting on certain days. Ironically "everyday" is a good day to meet. Good question !!
Hello, my dear brother. So good to hear from you and of your exciting journey into truth. Truth with Jesus Christ at the center.
I am also from Knoxville as I used to live there, part time. Every night, I drove a brown truck over to Callahan Drive. Then, from there, went to the airport to wait for a 757 cargo jet. Then back to Bristol as the sun came up. For 14 years I did this.
So many fine people around that City. I will never forget them.
We've just located to the Atlanta area and are on the road for one more day. We'll pick up this thread asap. I know you have much to share.
Eric, may the Lord direct your steps in the non-traditional pathway. And bring like-minded others across your path.
Hi David. My name is Eric I live in Knoxville. I saw your house gathering there in Bristol. I wish you were closer because I loved your example of the Lord’s supper. I’m looking to move towards a house Church situation and hoping I’ll be able to find somebody in Knoxville soon. I just finished reading the book Pagan Christianity and that sums everything up well. Interestingly, I will tell you that as much as they really think that the church has gone the wrong way for 2000 years, They’re very supportive of people who are in physical churches, and the book has to be read completely front to back to see their context. I really don’t think they’re trying to diss anybody. They’re just trying to get everybody to step back and think about what we’ve been doing. 30 years now of not being comfortable in churches and I’ve never been able to put my finger on it until now - They inherently breed insincerity and that’s what it is for me. It’s not about individual people, but rather the situation people are placed in. We forget that we ourselves are the church and it’s not a location. There’s no building with inherent holiness. I’m praying to find a little gathering of people which would be the church hopefully not more than maybe 30 people. Everybody contributes. Nobody has an official title. It’s interesting that in the early church there were cults and false teachings that developed and there’s a fear now that what I’m suggesting will lead to that but in reality those things develop anyways.
A Psalm of Life by Henry W Longfellow
What The Heart Of The Young Man Said To The Psalmist.
Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream!
For the soul is dead that slumbers, And things are not what they seem.
Life is real! Life is earnest! And the grave is not its goal;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest, Was not spoken of the soul.
Not enjoyment, and not sorrow, Is our destined end or way;
But to act, that each to-morrow Find us farther than to-day.
Art is long, and Time is fleeting, And our hearts, though stout and brave,
Still, like muffled drums, are beating Funeral marches to the grave.
In the world’s broad field of battle, In the bivouac of Life,
Be not like dumb, driven cattle! Be a hero in the strife!
Trust no Future, howe’er pleasant! Let the dead Past bury its dead!
Act,— act in the living Present! Heart within, and God o’erhead!
Lives of great men all remind us We can make our lives sublime,
And, departing, leave behind us Footprints on the sands of time;
Footprints, that perhaps another, Sailing o’er life’s solemn main,
A forlorn and shipwrecked brother, Seeing, shall take heart again.
Let us, then, be up and doing, With a heart for any fate;
Still achieving, still pursuing, Learn to labor and to wait.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Everywhere we turn are these forlorn and shipwrecked brothers and sisters. God could personally and miraculously heal and provide for them. Instead, he has commissioned every Christian to be his minister to the least, last, and lost.
Yet, most Christians are slaves to the modern church system... They don't feel called to the "ministry".
The words to Pharaoh still echo down through the centuries: Let my people go - that they may serve me.
Carefully examine this dramatic, tear-filled text from Acts 20 to answer this important but simple question:
I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities and to them that were with me. I have showed you all things, how that so labouring YOU ought to SUPPORT the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
Do we really believe that the early churches - small churches meeting in homes - were paying their multiple elders a full-time salary? Pastors today have been taught to expect salaries, as you are aware. But a closer inspection will reveal that their support was to be needs based, just as the widows, the female elders, whom he had just addressed in 1 Timothy. In fact the same word for honor (time) is applied to both genders regarding this matter of support.
In fact, the same word for honor is applied in the same letter to the respect which servants owed to their masters. Do we really believe that these servants were paying their masters a salary?
It cannot be denied that the pastors (elders or seniors) themselves are exhorted to be working in order to support OTHERS.
A complete reversal of the modern arrangement!
Probably the most widely accepted concept that underpins every eclesical hierarchy is the root concept of "office". For the sake of full disclosure I should mention that I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit from Catholic clergy. I love Catholics and don't argue with them about what I disagree with them about. I'm saying this because if you really buy into the concept of "offices" and ecclesiastic hierarchy it's logical conclusion is to become integrated into Catholicism or one of the Orthodox churches . In many ways I really do envy people that have the ability to just accept everything that their denomination teaches but I'm just not designed for that. If you have the privilege of thriving in that type of blissful experience and don't want to challenge any of the ideas that you hold dear you probably really shouldn't read anything I write or expose your self to any of my views. Seriously don't, I don't debate I have absolutely no need to try and change anyone's opinion but if you are interested this is my conviction concerning ecleseastic hierarchy. All ecclesiastic hierarchys are man made artifacts. The concept of an "office" is at the root of all of them. If an office is empty human nature (flesh) becomes insecure and rushes to fill that office. You see this clearly in the first chapter of Acts. Peter decided that the office left vacant by Judas needed to be filled (before the infilling of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2). Functioning with out the Holy Spirit they drawl lots and instal Matthias. Hierarchical churchs believe that the account represents normative practice But a compelling argument can be made that infact this was a mistake or miss step. From a literary analysis it is as if man picked Matthias and God picked Paul. It's as if Luke only mentioned Matthias as a contrast to Paul one selected by man (before the coming of the Holy Spirit) and one selected by God. A careful reading of Acts shows Jesus commanding his disciples to go to Jerusalem and wait for the promised Holy Spirit not to do anything else. Filling the office of Judus can and should be seen as another one of Peter's over enthusiastic miss steps that are so well documented in the scriptures before he received the Holy Spirit.
This brings me to my position offices don't exist in the Kingdom of God but functions do. The concept of teacher/pastor, evangelist, prophet, apostle are actually functions. God does gift specific people to the church to fulfill these functions but if church history has taught us it is that God does this in His unique way not the way humans do.
So let's dispense it with the titles and focus on the actual function. As a missions mobilizer I always find it amusing that some people think there is a absence of apostles. . There are plenty of missionaries walking in the power of the Holy Spirit reaching the remaining unreached people groups. The church for the most part just ignores and neglects to follow them.
Building on what you've said about language, I'd add that another thing that really holds Christians back, especially in the West, is our regular thought patterns which are very linear in nature. When we see certain words or phrases, we associate meanings with them without once giving thought to whether those meanings are true and accurate. Consider, for example, the word "worship". I think that many Christians, when asked for Biblical references about worship, might cite the 4th commandment, "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy". But where, exactly, does God say that this means that we must *worship* on the Sabbath? Here is the Scripture from Ex 20:8-11....
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Not only do I not see the word "worship" anywhere in the text, but what we see seems to clearly exclude worship in it's definition of Sabbath day holiness. Verse 8 tells us to keep the Sabbath holy. Verses 9 and 10 appear to define what holiness means in this context. Verse 11 brings us back to creation where it all started. Verse 11 also bookends the "rest" aspect of Sabbath day holiness by saying, "[He] *rested* on the seventh day. *Therefore* the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it *holy*" (emphasis mine).
Now before anyone says that I believe that you can't worship on the Sabbath or that I'm just being too nit-picky, I see nothing wrong with worshipping on the Sabbath. But growing up in a culture where the Sunday was considered to be the Sabbath day of rest (it is not) and Sundays were packed with church activities that offered very little actual rest for the week's activities, I think that we Christians would do well to take a step back to see how we got to the convoluted system that exists today. We should listen to what God is telling us in Scripture and adjust accordingly. What prevents us from even thinking about doing this is the fact that when we think of "worship" we pull in all this extra human-invented crud that can't be defended Scripturally. We follow that which we have been taught, not necessarily that which God has ordained.
I am extremely encouraged by the responses to this post. It really seemed to me that rejecting scriptures based on the potential theological changes to personal confirmation bias was some what expectable here and that never should be.
One of the most fascinating aspects of contemporary theology is that all the conflicting polity structures rely on the pastoral Epistles as proof text for polity structures that are completely different. There's certainly no reason to believe that Scriptures that can be interpreted to support all kinds of leadership structures is suspect of corruption or illegitimacy.
My main focus in the church is that of a missions mobilizer. I admit that it is not popular. In that regard I absolutely insist that the first second language any cross cultural worker learns is biblical Greek. I am dyslexic (you may have noticed that I leave obvious incorrect words, I can't really detect typos). It probably took me three times as much time and effort to achieve the competency in Greek that a non nurodivegant person would need. The fact is that you only have two options in regards to the scriptures. You can learn Greek and study them directly or you will only ever be able to study what others have written about the scriptures. Every translation is an interpretation and highly imperfect.
The real problem is that the stated goal of the translation is to sell the most Bibles . It's a popularity contest and the concept of accuracy is completely neglected. Just a few generations ago you had to learn Greek if you went to college. Translators would never even try to take some of the libertys that are taken in the novel translations because tons of people many probably not even Christians would call them out on it.
I'm saying all this to say it is definitely worth the effort to learn to read Greek. I also am an unflinching proponent of studying the Septuagint. It's absolutely the Bible that the early church used and influenced the New testament more than any other writing. I'm not Lutheran I have a problem with Luther's wanting to reject scriptures for his theology (he had problems with James, Hebrews and the Septuagint). I guess that brings me back to where this started. Don't ditch scriptures that challenge your theology.
T
Hi brother Cal,
Please let me say how sorry that I am that you are feeling lonely and disconnected. The Christian life is not meant to be lived this way. Also, your cult story sounds pretty horrific. However, it serves as a great reminder to the rest of us that following a single individual or even a group of people is not the same as following Christ as the Head of the church. What I found very interesting about my most recent experience with the institutional church is that the more I pressed the elders on their beliefs, the more I could hear the voice of the Pope coming through. It was a message that lacked both mercy and grace. Thankfully, by God's unyielding love for me, I was familiar with John 10:27 where Jesus says, "my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me". So when my former church told me that I should leave the fellowship as they were unwilling to open the Scriptures and explain them to me, I knew that what they were telling me was not of God but of man
What for it's worth, I'm continuing to look for true fellowship with like-minded Christians outside of the church system. I have made a few friends, and I'm doing what I can to deepen those connections. My biggest fear at the moment is that as the size of any group grows, the interlopers begin to step in to cause distractions. It seems like anything good eventually takes a turn for the worse. Case in point... there is a YouTube channel that I found a few months ago that had some great content on how the church should conduct itself. Then suddenly last week, the content became all about a nationally recognized ministry and their perceived indiscretions. When I commented on one video about the content seeming rather gossipy, the response was that it was important that Christians not commit the specific sins that were called out in the video. That's all fine and good, but what I don't see is these same content creators calling out sins of their own and confessing them before God. It didn't take me long to realize that this was not a place for me to be. I mean, I get the fact that there is no perfect gathering of believers, but shouldn't we at least be trying to treat each other with mercy, love, and forgiveness rather than tearing each other down?
I am exhausted :-(