House Church Talk - Re: Baptisms and Administrations

Bruce Woodford bwood4d at
Mon Mar 8 16:31:13 EST 2004

Hi Ross,
>The questions were, " Are there not instructions in the Law for how those 
>other nations are to
>approach and worship God? Were they not required to come and conduct
>themselves in respect of the covenant people?" The point is that there are
>and I am presuming that you are familiar enough with scripture to know

To be honest, brother, I am not aware of such instructions to other nations 
during the old covenant period.  So I'm not much help here!  What sort of 
instructions, subjects or contexts come to your mind relative to these 

>I am not ignoring the question, Bruce. Point in fact concerning
>presuppositions is our different understanding of Job's place in history.
>Basics require that we start at the beginning doesn't it?

If scripture does not indicate such things clearly, it probably wn't have 
any real bearing of any value anyway and nothing should be based on thinsg 
we do not know for sure!

>I don't see the Bible as a systematic theology textbook where simple proof
>texts can be tossed out as an answer. Some things are deduced from a larger
>context and are not going to be explicitly stated in so many words. See,
>there again we do have to organize and recognize what each other's
>presuppositions are.

I never claimed that the scriptures were a systematic theology text, I just 
simply believe that every scrfiptural doctrine is stated in the very words 
of scripture.  Every fundamental doctrine can be sio stated as every 
doctrine that is truly scriptural can be.

If you believe that some doctrines of scripture must be deduced but are not 
explicitly stated, can you list some examples other than the doctrine 
relative to the Body of Christ and baptism which you have been seeking to 
defend here???

If not, I think your presuppositions in this regard might indeed be quite 

>I hope to develop and support my thinking more fully. If I am correct, the
>context of John and Jesus' ministry is one of restoration and reformation
>according to a covenant relationship as opposed to Jews and heathens being
>converted to Christianity.

Brother Ross, you don't have to convince me that the John's ministry and 
baptism and the ministry and baptism of the Lord's disciples under the old 
covenant was radically different to that to which the Lord Jesus gave to his 
disciples AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, i.e. under the new covenant!   I never 
have believed or assumed that John's baptism was a baptism of new covenant 
believers!  His was a ministry of preparation (preparing old covenant people 
to recognize and siubmit to Christ, the Lamb of God).  That is a vastly 
different ministry and message from that preached by the apostles after 

That is precisely why the Lord's commission and command to baptize disciples 
in Matt.28 has nothing to do with John's baptism!  But has everything to do 
with believers in Christ on new covenant ground.

Your brother in Christ,

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