House Church Talk - Visualizing Christ

[Lee Underwood]

Phillip,

I am sorry you missed my point. Obviously we do visualize things. We have 
eyes. I was speaking of the technique of "visualization". That is much 
different. That is what you were speaking of. The technique is plain 
witchcraft. Believe me, I know of what I am speaking.

You speak of "dreams and goals". My only dream and goal is to see Jesus 
ruling and reigning on the earth. That was also the only "dream and goal" 
of the apostles, of David, of Moses.

Scripture does say we will see visions and dream dreams. The awesomeness of 
that is that, yes, they WILL come from the Lord. Otherwise, why would it be 
so different? Man has always seen visions and dreamed dreams. So what? 
Scripture is not focused on man. It is focused on God, and only Him.

Anything "birth from within" cannot be all that good. We are fallen 
creatures. There is no good in us. (You might look at "If you believe that 
people are basically good", 
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp20021231.shtml). The fall 
of man was "birthed from within". We must realize that we can do nothing of 
ourselves. What do you think Jesus meant when He said that? Jesus Himself 
was not trusting in man for He knew what was in man.

Yes, "every invention that surrounds us began with a thought, a dream, a 
vision, a desire." So what? It will all burn, according to Scripture. It is 
of man. Sure God gave us brains but we use them for OUR benefit.

I'm sorry that you were offended. I just see so much of this pagan world in 
the midst of the church and the church wholeheartedly adopts the ways and 
methods of the world. The truth is, the church needs to draw closer to 
Jesus and farther away from the world.

I'll just say one more thing. You asked "Have you successfully created an 
image of Jesus in your mind?" Do you realize how blasphemes that is? There 
is a reason God said not to make any graven images. How can you, or me, or 
anyone else, create an image of the living Son of God? I would ask that you 
don't bring Him down to our level.

The answer is to seek Him, over and over and over ... The problem is 
Christians in the U.S. want everything right now. They don't want to seek 
the Lord. Well, that is what His word says, "If you seek Me, you will find Me".

Forgive me if the tone of this got a little out of hand. I take offense 
when people use God for their own personal needs. All this humanism in the 
church will end up getting people destroyed.

Blessings,

Lee


At 7/22/04 12:06 PM, Phillip Cohen wrote:
>Hi Lee,
>
>So you don't visualize things? You have no dreams or goals? Just trying
>to make it through the day? I spent most of my life like that. Very
>boring, depressing, black and white. Dark Ages stuff.
>
>In the last days, we'll see visions and dream dreams. Does that mean
>they'll always come down from God? Never birthed from within? Never the
>dreams and desires of our own hearts? Who placed those visions there?
>
>Look around you. Practically every invention that surrounds us began with
>a thought, a dream, a vision, a desire. We could debate the issue till
>Jesus comes. Fact is, we do visualize, whether positive or negative. And
>then we move toward that vision.
>
>Blessings,
>Phillip
>
>On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:06:21 -0400 Lee Underwood <leeu at cfl.rr.com>
>writes:
> > Phillip,
> >
> > I have to tell you that I think the process of visualization is
> > faulty, as
> > far as the Lord is concerned. Think about it. It is YOU who are
> > doing the
> > visualization, it is YOU who is coming up with the visualization.
> > Why not
> > seek the Lord for a REVELATION. Scripture speaks of revelation, not
> >
> > visualization.
> >
> > Paul says to contemplate the things above but he does not say to
> > visualize
> > them. Our mind can't visualize the things of the heavens. We are
> > fallen
> > creatures.
> >
> > Jesus is now glorified. We do not see any of the apostles trying to
> >
> > visualize Him. If God thought it necessary, He would reveal Jesus to
> > those
> > He wanted. Remember, Stephen, when he was filled with the Spirit,
> > saw (not
> > visualized) Jesus at the right hand of the Father. We are not the
> > ones in
> > charge of this, God is. Remember, He said HE reveals Jesus to us. A
> > problem
> > with "The Passion" and other films of Jesus is that, when some
> > people pray
> > to Jesus, they visualize the actor who played Him, whether they
> > realize it
> > or not. The human mind is a very powerful tool/weapon. Jesus is
> > glorified,
> > sitting at the right hand of the Father. Let's not bring Him down to
> > the
> > level He once suffered at.
> >
> > We're involved in a discussion group here that focuses on home
> > churches.
> > That, to me, says that most of the people, yourself most likely, are
> >
> > searching for the plain, Scriptural truth. We're tired of man's ways
> > and
> > want to get back to the plain, basic truth of following Jesus. For
> > that we
> > need to look at what the apostles did. And visualization was not one
> > of the
> > things that they did. They sought the Lord; they wanted to know Him
> > in
> > spirit and in truth. They weren't concerned about how He looked.
> > John says
> > when He returns we will know what He looks like (1 John 3.2).
> >
> > Phillip, I say these things in love, brother. I think the Church
> > needs to
> > come out of the world and its practices. If we don't see it
> > practiced in
> > the Scriptures, we must not do it ourselves. We don't need to
> > "update" the
> > Scriptures. Did not God know what was going to happen in our day?
> > Visualization is a mystical thing. I used to practice it, to some
> > extent.
> > The problem is that it works ... too well. And it does not appear
> > that
> > anyone in the Scriptures who followed God used it.
> >
> > Trust God and seek Him. Draw close spiritually.
> >
> > Blessings,
> >
> > Lee
> >
> >
> > At 7/22/04 05:11 AM, Phillip Cohen wrote:
> > >Dear Saints,
> > >
> > >I've started an audio/video course that helps me develop a more
> > positive
> > >self-image. Very good program.
> > >
> > >No, I'm not looking for a debate over whether this type of program
> > is
> > >right or wrong. Read on . . .
> > >
> > >The course recommends that I spend 20 minutes 3 times a day
> > relaxing and
> > >visualizing myself becoming like the people I admire. Well, here's
> > the
> > >problem . . .
> > >
> > >I really want to be like Jesus. But I'm having a hard time
> > visualizing
> > >Him. I'm realizing now that for all the years I've been reading
> > the
> > >Bible, I've processed the words, but come short on visualizing Him.
> > Sure,
> > >I enjoy visualizing the events in the Bible. That's fun, imagining
> > them
> > >as though they were happening right now.
> > >
> > >But visualizing Jesus? There are so many false Christs, I'm afraid
> > my
> > >imagination will just fabricate another false Christ.
> > >
> > >I'm stuck. Can you help me? Have you successfully created an image
> > of
> > >Jesus in your mind that helps you and is accurate with the Bible?
> > >
> > >An upbeat, inspiring discussion on this topic would be very
> > refreshing.
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >Phillip
> > >spiritfilledhome at juno.com
> > >God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in
> > them.
> > >1 John 4:16
>
>Phillip
>spiritfilledhome at juno.com
>God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them.
>1 John 4:16
>
>
>

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